>>> TURNING NOW TO THE UNITED STATES.
IN A MAGAZINE COVER STORY, ISABELLE WILKINSON ARGUES FROM JANUARY 6th TO TYRE NICHOLS, AMERICAN LIFE IS STILL DEFINED BY CAST AND SHE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW IT CONTINUES TO INFRINGE ON THE RIGHTS OF THE MARGINALIZED.
>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> YOU WROTE A BOOK IN 2020 CALLED CAST AND YOU'VE RECENTLY PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE IN TIME.
YOU ARGUE A LOT OF THINGS WE'RE GOING THROUGH NOW FROM JANUARY 6th TO THE TYRE NICHOLS MURDER CAN BE TRACED TO CAST.
SO WOULD YOU JUST TALK ABOUT LIKE WHY YOU SAY THAT?
FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS CAST AND HOW DO WE UNDERSTAND THAT AS, SAY, DIFFERENT FROM I DON'T KNOW, INEQUALITY OF SOME OTHER SORT AND WHY DO YOU SAY SO MANY EVENTS ARE ACTUALLY TIED TO AN AMERICAN UNSPOKEN CAST SYSTEM IN AMERICAN LIFE?
>> CAST IS ESSENTIALLY AN OLD FORM OF HIERARCHY OF SOCIETY AND HAS CERTAIN.
THERE IS GRADED RANKING OF HUMAN VALUE WHICH IS A WHAT IS A CAST SYSTEM IS.
IN ANY CAST, IT IS WHAT PEOPLE LOOK LIKE WHICH WE USE AS THE IDEA OF RACE AND WE CAN SEE THE AFTER EFFECTS OF IN OUR CURRENT DAY.
IN 2020 THE TRAJECTORY OF THE LIFE SPAN OF THE BOOK THAT CAME OUT WEEKS AFTER GEORGE FLOYD IS KILLED AND SIX MONTHS LATER THERE WAS JANUARY 6th, WHICH WAS HISTORIC, YOU KNOW, INFLECTION POINT IN OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY.
WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE 19th CENTURY TO FIND ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT AND THEN WE HAVE THE OVERTURNING OF ROE V. WADE AND THEN JUST WEEKS BEFORE THIS BOOK CAME OUT IN PAPER BACK, WHICH YOU REFERRED TO, WE HAVE THE KILLING OF TYRE NICHOLS AND THERE ARE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THESE THINGS THAT TAKE US BACK TO THE IDEA OF ORIGINATING DIVISIONS SHOWING UP NOW.
>> I THINK MANY PEOPLE -- WELL, PEOPLE HONEST CAN ADMIT NAZI GERMANY DREW INSPIRATION FOR SYSTEMS THEY IMPOSED ON JEWISH PEOPLE FROM THE AMANIER CAN -- AMERICAN APARTHEID SYSTEM.
THIS IS A VERY KIND OF COMPLEX BUT COMPLETE SOCIAL THEORY THAT PERMEATES EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE.
WHERE DOES THIS COME FROM IN THE AMERICAN STORY?
>> WE HAVE TO COME BACK TO THINKING ABOUT HOW HUMANITY IS VERY, VERY OLD.
THIS COUNTRY IS RELATIVELY NEW IN HUMAN HISTORY AND WE'RE GOING BACK TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND ESSENTIALLY THE ENTIRE WESTERN HEMISPHERE COLONIZED AND CREATING A FORM, A SYSTEM OF HUMAN INTERACTION AND HUMAN EXPLOITATION WITH IT.
SO YOU HAVE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD WHO LOOK DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER CO-HABITING IN A SAME SPACE, OF COURSE, THIS WAS BUILT UPON THE EUROPEANS FIRST TOOK THE LAND AND THEY USE THAT TO CREATE A HIERARCHY BASED UPON WHAT PEOPLE LOOK LIKE.
SO THEY TOOK THAT AND ADDED -- CREATED A VALUE, ESTABLISHED A VALUE.
THEY LOOKED DIFFERENT FROM THOSE WHO ASSIGNED THEMSELVES AT THE TOP?
THERE IS NO NEED TO THINK ABOUT IT FOR EUROPEANS BEFORE THE TIME OF ENSLAVEMENT AND CREATION OF WHAT WE NOW SEE AS THE UNITED STATES FOR PEOPLE TO BE THINKING OF THEMSELVES AS WHITE.
THEY WERE GERMAN.
THEY WERE POLISH.
THEY WERE IRISH.
THEY WERE ALL THESE OTHER THINGS BUT DID NOT IDENTIFY THEMSELVES BY WHAT WE NOW HAVE COME TO SEE AS A DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC, WHICH IS THE BASIS OF OUR HIERARCHY.
WE NEED TO LEARN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY AND RECOGNIZE HOW SINGULAR WE HAPPEN TO BE IN A WAY WE DON'T WISH TO BE.
>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT IN A MINUTE AND THE ROLE, THE CRITICAL ROLE OF TALKING ABOUT HISTORY PLAYS IN ALL THIS.
BUT I WANTED TO ASK YOU WALK ME THROUGH THE SEEMINGLY DESPERATE ELEMENTS OF EVENTS RECENT EVENTS THAT YOU TIE TO WHAT YOU CALL THE UNSPOKEN CAST SYSTEM.
SO START WITH JANUARY 6th.
WHICH, YOU KNOW, HAPPENED SO SOON AFTER YOUR BOOK CAME OUT.
HOW DO YOU TRACE JANUARY 6th, THE MOB ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, THE COUP ATTEMPT AND ATTEMPT TO OVERTURN A LAWFUL ELECTION BUT HOW DO YOU TIE JANUARY 6th SPECIFICALLY TO WHAT YOU CALL THE UNSPOKEN CAST SYSTEM OF AMERICAN LIFE?
>> WELL, THE IDEA OF CAST IS ABOUT RANKING STATUS AND VALUE ATTACHED TO ONE STATUS.
HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING ANYONE DOES.
YOU'RE BORN TO IT AND AGAIN, IT'S BASED IN OUR SOCIETY IT'S BASED UPON WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE, WHICH IS TRANSLATED INTO RACE, SO IT EFFECTS ONE'S STANDING AND COMPETENCE AND WORTHINESS AND IT ACCORDS ENTITLEMENTS THAT ARE BUILT IN TO THE SYSTEM AND IF YOU'RE AT THE -- IF YOU'RE ASSIGNED -- YOU'RE FROM A GROUP ASSIGNED AT THE TOP SINCE THE FOUNDING OF OUR COUNTRY, THIS ARE BENEFITS YOU ARE GETTING WHETHER THEY'RE RECOGNIZED OR NOT, WHETHER YOU KNOW IT IN YOUR BONES AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE -- ONE OF THE REASONS I WROTE THIS BOOK WAS BECAUSE OF THE IMPENDING INVERSION OUR COUNTRY IS FACING DEMOGRAPHICALLY.
THE CENSUS PROJECTS BY 2022 OR 2045, THE DEMOGRAPHIC CONFIGURATION THAT WE HAVE ALL COME TO RECOGNIZE ADJUSTS TO LIVE WITH FOR AS LONG AS MANY UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS EXPECTED TO BE OVER -- TO BE CHANGED SUCH THAT THERE WOULD BE THE HISTORIC MAJORITY WOULD NO LONGER BE IN THE MAJORITY AND THE 2020 CENSUS, THE BOOK CAME OUT IN 2020 BUT THE 2020 CENSUS, THE RESULT WHICH IS NOT AVAILABLE UNTIL 2021 SHOWED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY, THE HISTORIC MAJORITY OF WHITE AMERICANS FELL FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.
WHITE AMERICANS ARE STILL THE MAJORITY BY FAR BUT FELL FOR THE FIRST TIME OF WHICH DID NOT FALL SO THESE ARE -- WE ARE FACING A CRISIS IN WHICH WE ARE LOOKING AT A CONFIGURATION THAT NO ONE HAS EXPERIENCED BEFORE.
AND THESE ARE PRESSURES THAT ARE -- THAT CAN WAIL UP IN A SOCIETY.
THE DOMINANT GROUP COULD PERCEIVE THEMSEVES AS LOSING THE STATUS, THE RANKING, THE AUTOMATIC DEFERENCE AND ENTITLEMENT THAT COMES.
IT'S NOT PERSONAL.
IT JUST WHAT COMES WITH THE STRUCTURE OF OUR SOCIETY.
SO I BELIEVE THAT IS PART OF IT.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS SIGNIFICANT IN LOOKING AT JANUARY 6th VERSUS WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD IS THAT GEORGE FLOYD AS WE ALL, YOU KNOW, HORRIFICALLY SAW WAS KILLED BEFORE OUR VERY EYES BUT HE WAS KILLED PRESUMABLY BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN ACCUSED OF HAVING TRIED TO PASS A COUNTER FIT $20 BILL, WHICH IS AN INFRACTION THAT IS GENERALLY HANDLED WITH A CITATION AND A COURT DATE SO HE SHOULD BE ALIVE TODAY.
THEN SIX MONTHS LATER, THERE WAS THIS -- WHAT WE SAW IN JANUARY 6th, WHERE THERE WERE INSURRECTIONISTS WHO BROKE INTO THE CAPITAL WHO, YOU KNOW, ATTACKED A POLICE OFFICER LEADS TO THE DEATHS OF HALF A DOZEN OFFICERS AND WE SAW AT THE END OF THAT DAY, THOSE SAME PEOPLE WHO HAD RAMPAGED AND RANSACKED LAWMAKERS ULTIMATELY RESULTING IN THE DEATH OF HALF A DOZEN OFFICERS.
WE SAW THE SAME PEOPLE WHAT I WOULD CALL THE DOMINANT CASTE IN OUR COUNTRY, WALK DOWN THE STEPS OF THE CAPITOL WITH THEIR LIVES, SOMEONE THAT HAD BEEN DENIED GEORGE FLOYD JUST MONTHS BEFORE.
>> BUT WHAT ABOUT TYRE NICHOLS?
YOU ALSO TIE THIS TO CASTE.
AS WE NOW KNOW, THE FIVE MEMPHIS POLICE OFFICERS WHO HAVE BEEN CHARGED IN THE DEATH OF TYRE NICHOLS, WHO WAS BEATEN TO DEATH AFTER A TRAFFIC STOP, ALL OF THEM ARE BLACK.
AND HOW DO YOU TIE THAT TO THE CASTE SYSTEM?
BECAUSE PEOPLE SAY THAT'S A BAD APPLES PROBLEM, OR TRAINING ISSUE, OR THEY'RE TOO EXPERIENCED OR TOO HYPED UP.
SO HOW DO YOU TIE THAT TO CASTE?
>> WELL, WE'RE SO USED TO THE POLARITY OF BLACK VERSUS WHITE.
SO THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THESE DIVISIONS THAT WE HAVE INHERITED AS AMERICANS.
BUT CASTE ALLOWS US TO SEE THAT THIS IS AN ASPECT OF THE DEHUMANIZATION THAT HAPPENS IS WHEN CASTE SYSTEM ESSENTIALLY POSITIONS SOME PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM AS FOCUSED ON KEEPING CERTAIN PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM SO THAT OTHERS CAN REMAIN SECURE IN THEIR PLACE ABOVE THEM.
AND, SO, WHEN YOU HAVE A SITUATION LIKE TYRE NICHOLS WHO SUFFERED UNBELIEVABLE SUFFERING IN THAT SITUATION, AND WE LOOK AT THAT AND WE REALIZE THAT THAT ALMOST ANY -- IN A CASTE SYSTEM, ALMOST ANY ATROCITY CAN BE DIRECTED TOWARD THOSE WHO ARE IDENTIFIED AND RECOGNIZED AS BEING AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE HIERARCHY.
AND THAT MEANS THESE ATROCITIES COULD BE INFLICTED UPON THEM BY ANYONE IN ANY GROUP INCLUDING THEIR OWN GROUP.
BECAUSE THERE ARE SENTINELS AT EVERY REALM IN A CASTE SYSTEM.
AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE IN THE DOMINANT CASTE IN ORDER TO DO ITS BIDDING.
>> I THINK WHAT I HEAR YOU SAYING IS THAT THESE FOLKS ARE OF SO LITTLE VALUE THAT WHATEVER HAPPENS TO THEM IS UNIMPORTANT, THAT EVEN OTHER BLACK PEOPLE OR THE PEOPLE OF MARGINALIZED GROUPS DON'T HAVE TO RESPECT THE HUMAN DIGNITY OF SOMEONE WHO BELONGS TO THAT GROUP.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
AND THE SADDEST PART OF ALL OF THIS IS THAT EVERYONE KNOWS WHICH GROUPS CAN BE SUBJECTED TO ALMOST ANYTHING, AND WHICH GROUPS ARE PROTECTED FROM THAT STRUCTURE IN OUR SOCIETY.
>> YOU ALSO TIE THE ISSUES AROUND RESTRICTING IMMIGRATION, PARTICULARLY AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.
THE RIGHTS OF LGBTQ PEOPLE AND ACCESS TO ABORTION.
YOU TIE THIS TO THE CASTE SYSTEM BECAUSE YOU SAY THAT THESE ARE EXAMPLES OF DESPERATE EFFORTS BY A, QUOTE, DIMINISHING BUT DOMINANT SUBSET OF AMERICANS TO IMPOSE THEIR WILL ON THE REST OF THE COUNTRY THROUGH POPULATION CONTROL.
YOU KNOW, THE DEFENDERS OF THESE POSITIONS WOULD SAY, WELL, NO, THESE ARE OUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS THAT SPEAK TO THE IMPORTANCE OF PROTECTING VULNERABLE LIFE.
AND IN THE CASE OF -- OR GENDER ROLES, AS THEY ARE UNDERSTOOD.
AND IN THE CASE OF IMMIGRATION I THINK PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WELL, GOSH, IT'S THE CULTURE OR IT'S OUR LABOR MARKETS THAT WE'RE PROTECTING.
SO HOW DO YOU TIE THAT TO THE SAME UNIFYING IDEA?
>> WELL, CERTAINLY RELIGION HAS AN IMPORTANT ROLE FOR MANY, MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE GLOBE.
SO THIS IS NOT A CRITICISM OF RELIGION ITSELF.
BUT IT SO HAPPENS THAT, NOW, WHEN OUR COUNTRY WAS BEING FOUNDED AND THE HIERARCHY OF OUR COUNTRY WAS BEING ESTABLISHED WITH ENSLAVEMENT AS THE BASIS OF THE SOCIAL PROTOCOL AND ECONOMIC ORDER OF OUR SOCIETY, IT WAS BEING JUSTIFIED AND RATIONALIZED THROUGH THE BIBLE ITSELF.
THE STORY ABOUT NOAH AND HIS SONS WAS A FREQUENTLY REFERRED TO BASIS FOR ENSLAVEMENT IN OUR COUNTRY.
SO THAT THE BIBLE WAS DISTORTED AND CHRISTIANITY WAS DISTORTED TO AFFIRM AND RATIONALIZE THE HIERARCHY THAT WAS BEING CREATED IN THIS COUNTRY.
AND SO NOW THAT WE SEE OURSELVES FACING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS, A CIRCUMSTANCE WHICH NONE OF US HAS LIVED WITH, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE WHEN WE HAVE INVERSION OF OUR DEMOGRAPHICS, THERE WOULD BE EXPECTED TO BE A RESPONSE TO THE POTENTIAL INVERSION OF OUR SOCIETY.
BUT THESE ARE EXISTENTIAL QUESTIONS THAT THE COUNTRY IS FACING.
AND THOSE THAT HAVE THE GREATEST STAKE IN MAINTAINING OUR HIERARCHY WILL GO TO GREAT LENGTHS IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THEIR PLACE IN THIS HIERARCHY.
>> THIS NOTION THAT YOU TALK ABOUT, THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT IN THE BOOK, THAT YOU TALK ABOUT IN YOUR OP-ED ABOUT REPLACEMENT THEORY HAS NOW GONE MAINSTREAM, IF I MAY PUT IT THAT WAY, AMONG A CERTAIN SET OF PEOPLE.
I MEAN, LANGUAGE, ARGUMENTS THAT WERE CONSIDERED PROFOUNDLY RACIST, THE PROVINCE OF FRINGE TERRORISTS LIKE TIMOTHY McVAY, WHO WAS A BELIEVER IN THIS REPLACEMENT THEORY, THIS HAS GONE MAINSTREAM NOW WITH A CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE A BIG PLATFORM.
AND SO I GUESS THE QUESTION I HAVE IS, YOU KNOW, YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, IN THE TIME WE HAVE LEFT, TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IS THE ANSWER HERE?
ESPECIALLY AT A TIME WHEN YOU'VE GOT A NUMBER OF POWERFUL ACTORS, GOVERNORS, YOU KNOW, STATE LAWMAKERS, ACTIVISTS, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVISTS NOT JUST PUSHING THIS THEORY BUT ALSO TRYING TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO COUNTER THAT ARGUMENT WITH INFORMATION.
>> I THINK THE RESISTANCE TO KNOWLEDGE AS WE'RE SEEING WITH THE BANDS AND RESISTANCE TO UNDERSTANDING WHAT'S HAPPENING IN OUR COUNTRY MEANS THAT THOSE OF US WHO CARE ABOUT DEMOCRACY, THOSE OF US WHO CARE ABOUT A FAIR, MORE EGALITARIAN SOCIETY NEED TO FOCUS ON MAKING SURE THAT WE KNOW ALL THAT WE CAN ABOUT OUR COUNTRY, THAT WE LEARN AND RECOGNIZE THAT OUR COUNTRY IS LIKE AN OLD HOUSE.
YOU ARE NOT THE ONE WHO CREATED THE UNEVEN PILLARS AND JOYCE AND BEAMS AND THE WIRING AND THE CORRODED PIPES.
BUT ONCE YOU TAKE POSSESSION OF THAT HOUSE, IT IS UP TO YOU, IT IS UP TO YOU TO FIX WHATEVER IS WRONG.
AND WE HAVE MANY, MANY SYSTEMS THAT ARE FACING CHALLENGES AND THE OVERHAUL, REPAIR AND OVERHAUL IN OUR COUNTRY.
AND THAT MEANS THAT WE HAVE A LOTH OF WORK TO DO.
THE BEAUTY OF DESCRIBING OUR COUNTRY AS AN OLD HOUSE THAT WE CALL AMERICA IS THAT IT ALLOWS US TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE DON'T GET ANYWHERE BY MAKING THIS SOMETHING ABOUT BLAME AND SHAME AND GUILT.
THAT WE HAVE TO ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND GET TO WORK TO FIX THIS.
BUT YOU CAN'T FIX WHAT YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE.
AND WE CAN'T HEAL FROM WHAT YOU HAVE NOT DIAGNOSED.
AND THE GOAL IS TO FIRST UNDERSTAND HOW DID WE GET HERE.
CASTE ALLOWS US TO SEE.
LOOKING AT THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF OUR COUNTRY, WHATEVER WE CALL THAT, ALLOWS US TO SEE THE DEPTH AND THE BREADTH OF WHAT WE ARE UP AGAINST.
AND SO WE, I THINK, NEED TO LEARN TO RECOGNIZE OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY, TO KNOW HOW WE GOT TO WHERE WE ARE, AND TO NOT BE SURPRISED WHEN THESE THINGS HAPPEN, BUT TO GET AHEAD OF IT AND TO RECOGNIZE WHAT WE ARE FACING AS A COUNTRY IN ORDER TO MAKE THIS THE MOST EGALITARIAN, OPEN COUNTRY WITH THE MOST POTENTIAL.
WHAT I'VE DONE IS A PRAYER FOR OUR COUNTRY.
IT IS A PRAYER THAT WE FIND A WAY TO GET AHEAD OF THIS EXISTENTIAL CRISIS SO THAT WE CAN MAKE THIS A COUNTRY THAT WE WANT IT TO BE THAT'S EMBRACING OF ALL PEOPLE.
WE HAVE A CHANCE TO CREATE A COUNTRY THAT EMBRACES ALL AND THAT IS A FAIR AND MORE EGALITARIAN ONE FOR ALL, AND HOPEFULLY EVEN A MORE SUCCESSFUL ONE.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
IT WAS A JOY.
