March 15, 2023

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

UNPRECEDENTED RESISTANCE IN ISRAEL AS BENJAMIN NETANYAHU CONTINUES HIS CONTROVERSIAL JUDICIAL OVERHAUL.

MILLIONS VOICING THEIR SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRACY.

WE SPEAK TO A FORMER MASSAD CHIEF AND A NEGOTIATOR.

>>> THE GREAT WALL OF STEEL.

XI JINPING VOWS TO BUILD ONE TO WARD OFF THE UNITED STATES.

HOW WILL JOINT MILITARY DRILLS BETWEEN CHINA, RUSSIA AND IRAN CREATE A NEW DYNAMIC?

PLUS -- >>> IT IS FRUSTRATING THAT AFTER THE WITHDRAWAL THERE ARE STILL TENS OF THOUSANDS OF AFGHAN ALLIES CAUGHT UP IN A COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY LEGAL LIMBO.

>> AN UNCERTAIN FUTURE.

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>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

TONIGHT, DEMOCRACY WATCH IN ONE OF THE WORLD 'S MOST TROUBLED REGIONS.

ISRAEL IS FACING UNPRECEDENTED INTERNAL UNREST AS PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU FORGES AHEAD WITH A CONTROVERSIAL BILL WHICH WOULD ALLOW LAWMAKERS APOLITICAL V TO OVER THE SUPREME COURT.

MILLIONS HAVE TAKEN TO THE STREETS IN SOME OF THE LARGEST PROTESTS THE COUNTRY HAS EVER SEEN.

EX-MILITARY CHIEFS AND BUSINESS LEADERS ARE ALSO VOICING CONCERNS, AND MANY SERVING MILITARY OFFICERS AND RESERVISTS ARE THREATENING TO REFUSE IF THE BILL PASSES.

EVER SINCE ITS CREATION, ISRAEL HAS PROCLAIMED ITSELF THE SOLE DEMOCRACY AMID DICTATORSHIPS AND AUTHORITARIANS IN THAT REGION.

ITS STRONGEST ALLIES HAVE TOUTED THAT DEMOCRACY AS A REASON FOR ITS STEADFAST BACKING.

YET EVEN THEIR SUPPORT IS SHIFTING.

WE DISCUSSED ALL OF THAT AND THE RAMIFICATIONS WITH OUR GUEST TONIGHT.

FIRST, A RARE INTERVIEW WITH EPHRAIM HALEVI, WHO JOINS ME FROM TEL AVIV.

WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT A LETTER THAT YOU YOURSELF SIGNED, ALONG WITH, YOU KNOW, OTHER FORMER HEADS OF MOSSAD AND OTHER HEADS OF THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, AND WHICH YOU TALKED ABOUT THIS LEGISLATION AND FEARED THE UNCONTROLLABLE AND HASTY NATURE OF IT.

CAN I ASK YOU WHY YOU CHOSE TO WRITE SUCH A PUBLIC LETTER AT THIS TIME?

WHAT IS AT THE HEART OF YOUR CONCERN?

>> TWO METHODS CONCERNING.

ONE WAS THAT THE LAST GENERAL ELECTION, WHICH WAS HELD VERY SHORTLY, A SHORT TIME AGO, WAS AN ELECTION WHICH WAS DECIDED ON SUPPOSEDLY OTHER ISSUES ENTIRELY.

THE INTENTION OF HAVING A CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE WAS NEVER MENTIONED, BECAUSE HAD IT BEEN MENTIONED, THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE LOST THE ELECTION.

I THINK WHAT THEY DID WAS THEY DECIDED NOT TO REVERT TO THEIR OWN CONSTITUENCY AND NOT TO REVEAL IT TO THE PUBLIC AT LARGE AND TO SPRING IT ON THE PUBLIC AT LARGE ONLY AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN ELECTED ON A FALSE PREMISE.

>> THAT IS QUITE AN ALLEGATION, AND COMING FROM SOMEBODY LIKE YOU IT CARRIES A HUGE AMOUNT OF WEIGHT.

I GUESS WHAT I WANT TO KNOW THEN IS, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS HAPPENING?

FROM WHAT WE READ THERE IS A JUDICIAL OVERHAUL THAT THEY SAY IS NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT IT MIGHT BE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE IN ISRAEL AND ALSO THE SETTLER MOVEMENT.

WHAT IS AT THE HEART OF THIS JUDICIAL OVERHAUL?

>> THE HEART OF THE JUDICIAL OVERHAUL IS THAT IN THE FUTURE, THERE WILL NOT BE ANY JUDICIAL REVIEW OF LEGISLATION IN PARLIAMENT.

IN OTHER WORDS, PARLIAMENT WILL BE FREE TO LEGISLATE WITHOUT HAVING ANY COUNTERPART IN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT THREATENS WHAT?

>> THAT THREATENS WHAT WE CALL DEMOCRACY.

IN DEMOCRACY, YOU HAVE A BALANCE OF POWER BETWEEN THE VARIOUS ELEMENTS THAT MAKE UP THE DEMOCRACY.

YOU HAVE THE LEGISLATION, THE LEGISLATIVE PART OF IT, YOU HAVE THE COURTS, AND YOU HAVE THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE COURTS ANYMORE, THAT MEANS THAT THERE IS NO PROTECTION, EVEN FOR MINORITY RIGHTS IN THIS NEW SET UP.

BITE, A LITTLE BIT OF AN INTERVIEW THAT I DID WITH A RECENTLY RETIRED AMBASSADOR, ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO PARIS.

THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID TO ME.

>> THERE WILL BE NO LEGISLATION FOR THE POWER OF THE GOVERNMENT.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS AND DECIDE WHATEVER IT WANTS.

THIS IS NOT A DEMOCRACY.

I WOULD SAY THAT THIS IS A DICTATORSHIP.

>> DO YOU AGREE THAT THIS REALLY IMPINGES UPON ISRAEL'S MUCH-VAUNTED DEMOCRACY?

>> I AGREE ENTIRELY.

SHE IS A VERY, VERY DISTINGUISHED LADY AND SHE HAS HAD A VERY LONG AND SUCCESSFUL CAREER IN HER LOCAL GOVERNMENT AS WELL.

I THINK THAT SHE PUTS HER FINGER ON IT!

IF THESE CHANGES, WHICH ARE NOW BEING DISCUSSED IN PARLIAMENT, WILL ACTUALLY BECOME LAWS, THEN WE WILL NO LONGER BE A DEMOCRACY.

>> SO I WANT TO ASK YOU SOME OF THE REALLY INTERESTING, AT LEAST FOR US WATCHING FROM ABROAD, AND PERHAPS FROM INSIDE ISRAEL, THE REACTION FROM WITHIN YOUR COMMUNITY, I.E., NOT JUST THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY BUT THE SECURITY COMMUNITY IN THE MILITARY.

WE HAVE SEEN NOW AN INCREASING NUMBER OF PUBLIC STATEMENTS AND LETTERS FROM, LET'S SAY, PILOTS, FROM COMMANDO UNITS, FROM OTHER INTELLIGENCE UNITS THREATENING NOT TO COME TO SERVE FOR THEIR RESERVE DUTY!

THREATENING WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL INSUBORDINATION OVER THIS PROPOSAL, IF IT BECOMES TRUE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT, AND WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THEY ARE SO UPSET ABOUT IT FROM THAT PART OF THE COMMUNITY?

>> THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO, IN MANY CASES, RISK THEIR LIVES IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THE SECURITY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

IF THEIR DECISION-MAKING PROCESS IS GOING TO BE ONE OF A DICTATORSHIP, THEN THE TYPE OF DECISIONS THAT WILL BE TAKEN BY THIS DICTATORSHIP WILL BE UNPALATABLE TO THESE PILOTS AND THESE OTHER RANKS WHO ARE NOW RISING UP.

THESE ARE THE CENTERPIECE OF ISRAEL'S DEFENSE CAPABILITY.

YOU CANNOT MAINTAIN AN EQUILIBRIUM BETWEEN THEM AND A DICTATORSHIP.

>> OF COURSE, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU AND THOSE MEMBERS OF HIS COALITION WHO WANT THIS TO HAPPEN , OBVIOUSLY THEY WOULD DENY THAT THEY ARE ENTERING INTO A DICTATORSHIP, BUT FURTHERMORE, THEY CALL THE CRITICS, YOU KNOW, JUST LEFT- WING MEDIA OR, YOU KNOW, PAID FOR BY THE UNITED STATES OR OTHERS.

THIS IS WHAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU SAID ABOUT THIS.

>> Translator: WHEN WE FIGHT ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND LOOK RIGHT AND LEFT, WE DON'T DO SO TO CHECK THE POLITICAL VIEWS OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

WE LOOK RIGHT AND LEFT KNOWING SHOULDER TO SHOULDER, AGAINST OUR ENEMIES TO ENSURE OUR SECURITY AND OUR FUTURE.

IN A PUBLIC STRUGGLE, THERE IS ROOM FOR PROTEST.

THERE IS ROOM FOR DISAGREEMENTS.

FOR EXPRESSING OPINIONS.

BUT THERE IS NO ROOM FOR REFUSAL.

>> YOU WERE AN ACTIVE CHIEF , AND ONE OF YOUR, OR MANY OF YOUR PEOPLE WOULD COME TO YOU AND SAY, SIR, I CANNOT OPERATE!

I CANNOT SERVE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

NETANYAHU SAYS THERE IS NO GROUNDS FOR REFUSAL.

>> THERE IS EVERY GROUND FOR REFUSAL, AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT HE CONCEALED THIS PLAN OF THEIRS BEFORE THE ELECTION AND ONLY REVEALED IT AFTER THE ELECTION.

HE KNEW FULL WELL THAT IF THIS HAD BEEN HIS ELECTION PLATFORM FOR HIS PARTY AND HIS SIDE OF THE AISLE IN PARLIAMENT, HE WOULD NOT HAVE WON THE ELECTION.

A PERSON WHO MISLEADS THE PUBLIC ON SUCH A CASE, HE MIGHT ALSO MISLEAD THE PUBLIC AND ALSO MISLEAD THE FORCES WHO ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES IN ASSESSING WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ON THE SECURITY FIELD.

>> SO WHY DO YOU THINK HE HAS TAKEN SUCH A RISKY MOVE?

NOT ONLY HAVE YOU LAID OUT THE RISKS FROM YOUR SIDE OF THE FENCE, BUT THE GOVERNOR OF THE BANK OF ISRAEL HAS ALSO SAID THAT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, CRAZY.

OTHERS HAVE APPEALED TO THE PRESIDENT TO, QUOTE, STOP THIS INSANITY.

SOME HAVE, YOU KNOW, SAID THAT IT COULD CAUSE CIVIL WAR.

WHY DO YOU THINK BIBI NETANYAHU HAS TAKEN THIS STEP ?

>> I AM NOT A PSYCHOLOGIST AND I DON'T PRETEND TO BE A PSYCHIATRIST, EITHER.

BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU OF TODAY IS NOT THE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU THAT I KNEW WHEN HE APPOINTED ME AS HEAD OF MOSSAD.

I AGREE ON THIS, BUT I CANNOT ACCEPT THAT HE SHOULD CONTINUE TO LEAD THE COUNTRY, AND I BELIEVE, THEREFORE, THAT IF NO SOLUTION IS FOUND TO PUT THIS NEW PROJECT OF HIS INTO WRAPS, AND NEVER TO BE UNWRAPPED, THEN I THINK THAT WE WILL BE ENTERING A SITUATION OF NONCONSTITUTIONAL DIVIDE.

>> CAN TAKE YOU ACROSS INTO THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, INTO THE WEST BANK?

YOU HAVE SEEN WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON.

THERE HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, SINCE THE START OF THE YEAR, EVEN MORE DEATHS THAN THIS TIME LAST YEAR, AT LEAST 14 ISRAELIS, 80 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED, AND ALSO THE RAMPAGE OF SETTLERS INSIDE THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK ON THE VILLAGE OF HUWARA .

HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU ABOUT THIS?

>> I AM VERY CONCERNED, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT WHAT HAPPENED IN HUWARA IS A DISGRACE AND A SHAME FOR ISRAEL.

IT ALSO SHOWS HOW, SHALL WE SAY, THE ILLNESS OF THE ISRAELI SYSTEM HAS SEEPED INTO THE IDEALS AS WELL.

WE NOW HAVE A GENERAL WHO ONLY RECENTLY WAS COMMANDING A MAJOR FORCE IN THE WEST BANK, WHO IS NOW A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, AND HE SAID THAT HE BELIEVED THE SOLUTION FOR WHAT HAPPENED WOULD BE, IN THE CASE THAT HAPPENED A WEEK OR TWO AGO, OF SIMPLY DEMOLISHING THE WHOLE VILLAGE.

SO I BELIEVE THAT HE WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE OF THE DAMAGE DONE BY THE POLICIES OF THE CURRENT NEW GOVERNMENT.

>> ON A MORE GEOPOLITICAL LEVEL IN YOUR REGION, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT MEANS FOR ISRAEL THAT CHINA HAS BROKERED THIS ARABIA AND IRAN?

>> I HAVE PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE IN A LOCAL NEWSPAPER HERE, WHICH SAYS THAT THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH, ON THE FACE OF IT, IS VERY STARTLING.

THEREFORE, I THINK THAT WE SHOULD NOT PREJUDGE IT, AND WE SHOULD FIND WAYS AND MEANS OF TRYING TO ANALYZE THIS NEW DEVELOPMENT AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT BROUGHT THE IRANIANS TO THEIR RAPPROCHEMENT WITH SAUDI ARABIA.

WHETHER THE TIME HAS COME FOR ISRAEL, ALSO, TO SEEK A DIFFERENT POLICY TOWARDS IRAN, AND MAYBE, IN A CLEVER WAY, AND IN A CONCEALED MANNER TO TRY AND ASSESS WHETHER THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF FINDING, SHALL WE SAY, A RAPPROCHEMENT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN.

>> MR. HALEVI, I FEEL LIKE I'M HALLUCINATING!

THAT IS HERESY EVER SINCE THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION!

IS THERE REALLY A POSSIBILITY, DO YOU THINK?

WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE?

>> I DO NOT KNOW IF THERE IS A POSSIBILITY, BUT I SAY THAT IF THIS IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED, WE WOULD LOOK ON THE FACE OF IT TO BE AN IMPOSSIBLE DEVELOPMENT.

THE CHINA WOULD BE ABLE TO PUT TOGETHER SUCH AN AGREEMENT, THEN WE HAVE TO LOOK INTO IT MORE DEEPLY AND TO FIND WHAT THE MOTIVES ARE OF ALL THE PARTIES WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THIS.

MAYBE WE COULD LOOK TO A DIFFERENT APPROACH, TO THE IRANIAN-ISRAELI CONFLICT, WHICH ISRAEL DID NOT SEEK AT THE OUTSET.

WE HAD A VERY, VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH IRAN UNDER THE PREVIOUS LEADERSHIP OF THE SHAW.

THERE IS NO REAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN.

WE DON'T HAVE A TERRITORIAL CONFRONTATION.

WE DON'T HAVE A COMMON BORDER.

THERE IS NO REAL REASON THAT THERE SHOULD BE A STATE OF WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN.

>> FASCINATING, AND I WILL DIG DEEPER INTO THAT WITH OUR NEXT GUEST.

EPHRAIM HALEVI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO LET US DIG DEEPER NOW ON THESE EXTRAORDINARY IDEAS AND CLAIMS.

REALLY THE GLOVES WERE OFF FROM EPHRAIM HALEVI.

AARON DAVID MILLER IS A FORMER MIDDLE EAST NEGOTIATOR AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND IS NOW A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE.

HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM!

I WAS QUITE STARTLED, AND I TOOK NOTICE AT THE VERY BLUNT WORDS OF THE FORMER HEAD OF THE MOSSAD .

WHAT STRUCK YOU MOST?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT IT IS PRECISELY THAT.

NOT JUST THAT EPHRAIM HALEVI IS A VERY WISE MAN AND, IN FACT, INSTRUMENTAL WITH FORMER PRIME MINISTER RABIN.

IT IS FROM SO MANY FORMER SHIN BET OPERATIVES.

THE HEAD OF MOSSAD SAID LAST MONTH THAT IF JUDICIAL REFORM WENT THROUGH, THEN THE MILITARY SIDE, THERE WAS NO COMPELLING REASON TO OBEY THE ORDERS OF A LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT.

I SAT WITH THREE ISRAELI RESERVISTS YESTERDAY READING THE SAME MESSAGE FROM WASHINGTON.

THAT, I THINK, IS EXTRAORDINARY.

HIS NOTION THAT IT IS MEN AND WOMEN WHO PUT THEMSELVES IN HARM'S WAY TO DEFEND THE STATE WHO ARE NOW COMING OUT WITH A MESSAGE THAT THE STATE, THE CHARACTER OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL, A DEMOCRACY, AND IMPERFECT DEMOCRACY, PERHAPS, THAT THESE ARE THE STAKES OF THE FUTURE OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL AS IT APPROACHES ITS 75th ANNIVERSARY?

WHEN THE BORDERS OF THE STATE NOR THE IDENTITY OF THE STATE ARE YET SETTLED?

THESE ARE TUMULTUOUS TIMES.

THE JUDICIAL REFORM EFFORT IS A MAJOR THREAT TO BOTH ISRAEL'S PEACEFUL INTEGRATION IN THE REGION AND ITS DEMOCRATIC CHARACTER.

>> BEFORE I ASK YOU HOW THE U.S. SHOULD REACT, YOU MENTIONED PEACEFUL REINTEGRATION IN THE REGION.

IT LOOKS LIKE IRAN HAS BEEN DONE WITH THE SAUDI'S VIA THE CHINESE.

AROUND WHAT NETANYAHU HAD HOPED WOULD BE INCREASING REINTEGRATION, HE IT, I ASSUME, WANTED TO HAVE A DEAL WITH SAUDI ARABIA.

WHAT DOES THAT DEAL ME IN FOR THE REGION, FOR ISRAEL, AND ACTUALLY FOR THE UNITED STATES?

>> I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS, AND I THINK WE NEED TO WAIT AND SEE, TO DETERMINE WHETHER THIS IS SOME SORT OF TRANSFORMATIONAL MOMENT OR WHETHER IT IS JUST ANOTHER TWIST AND TURN IN THE COMPLEXITIES OF THE MIDDLE EASTERN LABYRINTH.

I THINK THIS WAS DRIVEN IN LARGE PART, CHRISTIANE , THAT HE WANTED TO SEND A MESSAGE THAT YOU, AMERICANS, ARE NOT THE ONLY CUSTOMER.

I THINK HE IS HEDGING WITH RESPECT TO IRAN.

HE KNOWS THERE IS AN ASYMMETRY TOWARDS WEAKNESS WITH REGARDS TO IRAN AND SAUDI ARABIA.

SO I THINK HE IS HEDGING THERE AND GIVING THE CHINESE AN EXTRAORDINARY OPPORTUNITY, TOGETHER WITH IRAN, BASICALLY, AMERICA'S ERSTWHILE INTERNATIONAL ADVERSARY, BROKERING AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE BY THE MINISTRATION'S ERSTWHILE REGIONAL ADVERSARY PRESUMPTIVE ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES IN SAUDI ARABIA.

SO I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION, ON THIS ONE, EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE WELL INFORMED THAT THESE NEGOTIATIONS WERE TAKING PLACE, THEY ARE LOOKING AT THIS, CHRISTIANE , LARGELY FROM THE OUTSIDE.

>> BACK TO THE INTERNAL ISRAELI DYNAMIC RIGHT NOW, THE DRAMA THAT IS UNFOLDING, AS YOU MENTIONED, EPHRAIM HALEVI MENTIONED A GROWING NUMBER OF STAKEHOLDERS ARE COMPLAINING AND ARE OUT ON THE STREETS, INCLUDING THE GOVERNOR OF THE BANK OF ISRAEL.

WE KNOW THAT U.S. INVESTORS ARE WARNING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MESSING AROUND WITH THE INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY.

WE KNOW THAT THE SHACKLE HAS TAKEN A DIVE.

HERE IS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT HE SAID.

>> I CANNOT BE CLEARER THAN THIS.

THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE GOVERNOR AND OUR CENTRAL BANK ARE CRITICAL TO THE ECONOMY.

ANY COUNTRY THAT HAS TINKERED, LET ALONE WEEKEND THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE CENTRAL BANK HAS SUFFERED DIRE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES.

>> SO IT IS FROM ALL CORNERS NOW, INCLUDING THE BUSINESS QUARTER.

WHO IS GOING TO SORT OUT A COMPROMISE?

>> I WOULD GO BACK TO EPHRAIM HALEVI 'S NOTION THAT IT IS NOT THE SAME BENJAMIN NETANYAHU THAT HE DEALT WITH IN THE 90s OR EVEN THE EARLY OUGHTS.

I THINK THAT HE HAS NOW BECOME RISK-READY, AND I THINK THAT IT IS LARGELY DRIVEN BY A NUMBER OF FACTORS, INCLUDING THE REALITY, CHRISTIANE , THAT HIS ONGOING TRIAL FOR BRIBERY AND FRAUD IS NOW IN ITS THIRD YEAR IN THE JERUSALEM DISTRICT COURT.

IT IS DRIVING THIS.

ISRAEL HAS HAD FIVE ELECTIONS LARGELY BECAUSE MR. NETANYAHU WOULD NOT ALLOW ANY GOVERNMENT TO BE FORMED OR ANY OTHER PARTY TO PARTICIPATE IN ANY GOVERNMENT UNLESS HE FIGURED OUT A WAY TO GET A MAJORITY IN AN EFFORT TO PASS JUDICIAL OVERRIDE, WHICH WOULD SOMEHOW IMMUNIZE HIM OR DELAY OR UNDERMINE HIS CURRENT TRIAL!

I THINK THAT, FRANKLY, COINCIDES WITH THE INTERESTS OF BEZALEL SMOTRICH AND BEN GVIR TO PASS LEGISLATION.

SO THIS IS ALL PART OF THE SAME PIECE, AND IT IS HEADING IN A VERY BAD DIRECTION.

IF THIS GOES THROUGH AND THREE KNESSET READINGS ARE PASSED, AND THEY DECLARE THIS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, I THINK THAT YOU MIGHT SEE MASSIVE CIVIL VIOLENCE, BUT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A FUNCTIONAL STATE, FRANKLY, ON THE CUSP OF BECOMING DYSFUNCTIONAL.

>> YOU KNOW, I ALSO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT EPHRAIM HALEVI SAID ABOUT IRAN.

HE POSED THE QUESTION OF WHETHER IT IS A MOMENT NOW FOR ISRAEL TO THINK OF A DIFFERENT MOMENT WITH IRAN.

HOW DOES THAT STRIKE YOU?

>> HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PERIOD BEFORE THE REVOLUTION IN 1979, IN WHICH IRAN AND ISRAEL ENJOYED QUITE A CLOSE COOPERATIVE RELATIONSHIP ON THE SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE SIDE.

I SEE THIS CHINESE-BROKERED IRANIAN DEAL AS MUCH MORE OF A TRANSACTIONAL SORT OF ARRANGEMENT, NOT A TRANSFORMATION.

I THINK THAT IT WILL BE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FOR ANY NUMBER OF REASONS , FOR EVEN QUIET TALKS.

>> WHAT SHOULD THE U.S. DO NOW?

THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN ISRAEL'S MAIN BACKER FOR ALL THESE DECADES.

BASED ON MANY, MANY REASONS.

BUT EVEN NOW WE CAN SEE THAT THE SENTIMENT IS SHIFTING.

A NEW POLL IS ABOUT TO COME OUT ELIMINATING THAT.

I AM TALKING ABOUT SENTIMENT IN THE UNITED STATES MORE TOWARDS PALESTINIANS.

WHAT SHOULD THE U.S. DO IF THERE IS A FULL CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS INSIDE ISRAEL?

>> SHOULD , AS OPPOSED TO WHAT WILL IT DO?

I HAVE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS, BUT LET'S BE CLEAR.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DOES NOT WANT A MAJOR CONFRONTATION WITH MR. NETANYAHU.

IT'S BAD POLITICS AS FAR AS THEY ARE CONCERNED, AND THEY DON'T SEE MUCH MARGIN OR PROFIT, FRANKLY, IN TAKING ON THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE, BECAUSE THE PROSPECTS RIGHT NOW ARE PRETTY GRIM.

THE PRESIDENT AND HIS ADVISERS, INCLUDING SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AUSTIN , IT IS EXTRAORDINARY THAT A SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WOULD OFFER OFFICIAL VIEWS ON THE INTERNAL TO-INGS AND FRO- INGS OF ANOTHER PRIVATE DEMOCRACY.

SO THEY RELEASED A STATEMENT WITH REGARD TO SHARED VALUES.

MITCH McCONNELL, AS YOU KNOW, ISRAEL HAS BECOME VERY POLITICIZED WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

MITCH McCONNELL HAS ALREADY SAID AT LEAST TWICE THAT THE UNITED STATES SHOULD STAY OUT OF IT.

I THINK THAT THE ADMINISTRATION ON THE MATTER OF JUDICIAL REFORM WILL CONTINUE TO DELIVER STRONG PRIVATE MESSAGES, BUT I DON'T THINK THEY ARE IN A POSITION WHERE THEY ARE WILLING AND/OR ABLE TO HAVE A MAJOR FIGHT WITH ISRAEL ON THIS ISSUE.

>> WE WILL SEE HOW IT DEVELOPS.

AARON DAVID MILLER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

NOW, AS WE SAID, CHINA, IRAN AND RUSSIA ARE CLOSING RANKS AS THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES RAPIDLY DETERIORATES.

THE CHINESE DEFENSE MINISTRY ANNOUNCED THAT IT IS STAGING NAVAL DRILLS WITH IRAN AND RUSSIA IN THE GULF OF OMAN THIS WEEK.

CHINESE LEADER XI JINPING HAS PROMISED TO STRENGTHEN ITS NATIONAL SECURITY AND FORGE HIS MILITARY INTO, QUOTE, A GREAT WALL OF STEEL.

IN THE MEANTIME, CHINA IS ACCUSING THE U.S., UK AND AUSTRALIA OF, IN THEIR WORDS, GOING FURTHER DOWN A DANGEROUS ROAD AFTER THEY ENTERED A NEW DEAL ON NUCLEAR-POWERED SUBMARINES WHICH WERE INTENDED TO COUNTER CHINESE AGGRESSION IN THE INDO PACIFIC.

AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER IN THE PROGRAM, CHINA IS ALSO FLEXING DIPLOMATIC MUSCLE ON THE WORLD STAGE.

AGAIN, THAT HISTORIC DEAL THAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT.

NOW AGAIN, THAT IS REFRAMING THE ESTABLISHED ORDER IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND AMERICA'S PRESUMED DOMINANCE THERE.

FROM CHINA ON ALL OF THIS WITH VICTOR GALLO, A FORMER CHINESE OFFICIAL WHO IS JOINING ME NOW FROM BEIJING.

VICTOR GAO , THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME ON THE PROGRAM.

I KNOW THAT IT IS SUPERLIGHT FOR YOU IN BEIJING.

WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU HEARD YOUR LEADER TALK ABOUT BUILDING A WALL OF STEEL?

WHAT IS THAT INTENDED TO TELL HIS OWN PEOPLE AND THE WORLD?

>> FOR THE CHINESE PEOPLE, XI JINPING'S REMARKS ARE QUITE REASSURING, BECAUSE IN A VERY DANGEROUS AND UNCERTAIN WORLD, THE CHINESE PEOPLE DO WANT TO HAVE ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE THAT CHINESE SOVEREIGNTY AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY WILL BE FIERCELY DEFENDED.

FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD, I THINK THAT CHINA'S MESSAGE IS CLEAR.

THAT IS THAT CHINA IS AN INDEPENDENT, SOVEREIGN NATION STANDING FIRMLY ATOP PRINCIPLE, AND IT REFUSES TO BE BULLIED BY ANY COUNTRY OR GROUP OF COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.

IN THIS WAY, CHINA WILL DO ITS HOMEWORK, CONTINUE TO IMPROVE ITS ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, BUT ALSO ENGAGE WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD ON EQUAL TERMS.

I WOULD SAY THAT THIS PEACE DEAL BETWEEN IRAN AND SAUDI ARABIA IS REALLY THE FIRST INDICATION THAT CHINA IS NOW COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT IN ITS OWN INITIATIVE, AND YOU NEED TO EXPECT THAT MORE INITIATIVES WILL COME FROM CHINA IN MEDIATING AND PLACATING OFFICERS IN VERY DIFFICULT SITUATIONS, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, INVOLVING ISRAEL AND PALESTINE, OR INVOLVING MYANMAR'S RELATIONS WITH ASEAN , OR WITH ISSUES ON THE KOREAN PENINSULA.

YOU WILL SEE A MUCH MORE PROACTIVE PROFILE COMING FROM CHINA BASED ON THIS SELF- CONFIDENCE AND ASSURANCE, AND THE NEED FOR PROMOTING PEACE BY SOME OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.

>> SO THAT'S REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

YOU SAID A FEW THINGS THAT ARE REGIONAL THAT MAKES SENSE, BUT THEN YOU WENT AND SAID THAT THEY MIGHT GET INVOLVED BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE, WHICH THE CHINESE HAVE NEVER DONE!

THAT IS PRETTY EXTRAORDINARY IF THEY TAKE THAT ON!

YOU REALLY THINK THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE ALREADY PRELIMINARY INITIATIVES IN THAT DIRECTION.

WHY?

BECAUSE CHINA HAS ALWAYS BEEN A VERY STRONG SUPPORTER OF THE LEGITIMATE CAUSES OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ON THE ONE HAND.

ON THE OTHER HAND, CHINA HAS ALWAYS BEEN A VERY CLOSE AND FRIENDLY NATION TOWARDS ISRAEL.

CHINA-IS REALLY CORPORATIONS ARE VERY DEEPLY ROOTED AND COVERED MANY AREAS.

CHINA BELIEVES THAT GOOD RELATIONS WITH BOTH PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS GAVE THEM THIS UNIQUE POSITION WHERE THEY ARE IMPARTIAL BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS, AND THEY HAVE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND TO PROMOTE PEACE.

BECAUSE CHINA STILL BELIEVES THAT IF ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS CAN WORK OUT A BETTER SOLUTION FOR THE LEGITIMATE INTERESTS OF BOTH SIDES, IT WILL BE A GOOD SOLUTION FOR THEMSELVES AS WELL AS FOR THE MIDDLE EAST AS A WHOLE.

>> SO VICTOR GAO, LET ME JUST INTRODUCE YOU FOR A MOMENT.

SO CHINA, YOU SAID, IS SHOWING ITS NEW SELF-CONFIDENCE AND DESIRE TO PLAY A MUCH BIGGER WORLD ROLE.

IT ALSO SAYS THAT IT ABIDES BY THE U.N.

CONVENTIONS AND CHARTERS AND RESPECTS TO TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY.

SO CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IT SQUARES THAT CIRCLE, WHEREBY IT IS SO CLOSE TO RUSSIA, WHICH HAS VIOLATED THE U.N. CHARTER BY INVADING ANOTHER COUNTRY, AND RIGHT NOW IT IS --YOU ARE LOUDLY PROCLAIMING THAT IT IS ABOUT TO HAVE UNPRECEDENTED JOINT MILITARY EXERCISES WITH RUSSIA AND IRAN.

THAT IS A MESSAGE, BUT IT IS NOT A MESSAGE ABOUT UPHOLDING INTERNATIONAL LAW!

>> CHRISTIANE, ALLOW ME TO EXPLAIN THIS VERY INTERESTING AND VERY IMPORTANT SITUATION.

FIRST OF ALL, OF ALL COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD TODAY, CHINA IS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHICH HAS PRODUCED, OR PROPOSED A PEACE FRAMEWORK TO END THE WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

WHICHEVER COUNTRIES WOULD STAND BEHIND UKRAINE, THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT INITIATIVE, BECAUSE CHINA BELIEVES THAT THE WAR WILL NOT SERVE ANY CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, AND EVENTUALLY ONLY PEACE CAN REALLY RESTORE THE CONFIDENCE OF THE PEOPLE IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD AND ALSO CREATE MAXIMUM BENEFITS FOR THE PEOPLE IN UKRAINE, AS WELL AS FOR MANY OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

PROLONGING THE WAR IS A GREATER ON THE OTHER HAND, CHINESE- RUSSIAN RELATIONS HAVE BEEN NORMALIZED SINCE 1991, AND IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN BASED ON EQUALITY AND GOOD NEIGHBORLY -LINESS .

IT STARTED BACK IN 1989 WHEN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION WAS STILL AROUND.

NOBODY SHOULD EXPECT THAT THEY CAN THROW A WEDGE INTO CHINA- RUSSIA SOLIDARITY AND GOOD NEIGHBORLINESS.

YES, CHINA AND RUSSIA ARE CONDUCTING JOINT MILITARY EXERCISES BOTH INVOLVING THEIR ARMY, NAVAL FORCES AND AIR FORCES.

THIS SHOULD ACTUALLY BE VIEWED AS REALLY A CONTRIBUTOR TO PEACE AND STABILITY, NOT ONLY BETWEEN CHINA AND RUSSIA, BUT IN OUR PART OF THE WORLD.

>> WITH IRAN?

THERE ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO SEE THAT IS PEACEFUL, BUT WE WILL SEE.

BUT I GUESS, YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT THE CHINESE PEACE PLAN, ROUNDLY DENIED AND ANNOUNCED.

BASICALLY IT IS RUSSIA'S PEACE PLAN.

IT IS RUSSIA'S IDEA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT PRESIDENT XI IS GOING TO SAY TO PRESIDENT PUTIN WHEN HE VISITS SOON, THEN WE UNDERSTAND HE IS GOING TO SPEAK REMOTELY WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY.

>> FIRST OF ALL I THINK THAT TO PROMOTE THIS PEACE PROPOSAL, I THINK CHINA NEEDS TO REACH OUT TO BOTH RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY FIRM ARRANGEMENT AS TO HOW THIS ARRANGEMENT BETWEEN CHINA AND UKRAINE WILL EVENTUALLY BE FINALIZED, BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THERE ARE CHANNELS OF COMMUNICATION BETWEEN CHINA, UKRAINE AT THE VERY TOP, AND IN MULTIPLE WAYS.

SO THEY KEEP TALKING WITH EACH OTHER, THEN BETWEEN CHINA AND RUSSIA, OF COURSE, THEY HAVE HOTLINES, THEY CAN COMPARE NOTES AND TALK WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT MANY THINGS, NOT ONLY ABOUT THE WAR BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY ABOUT CHINA-RUSSIA COOPERATION IN MANY AREAS.

CHINA IS PROBABLY THE ONLY COUNTRY TODAY, IN THE WORLD OF TODAY, WHICH IS WELL-EQUIPPED TO BROKER A DEAL BETWEEN CHINA ON ONE HAND AND UKRAINE ON THE OTHER HAND, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAVE A VESTED INTEREST.

CHINA'S ONLY INTEREST IS TO PROMOTE PEACE BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES ON THE BASIS OF THE U.N. CHARTER, AND WITH FULL RESPECT FOR SOVEREIGNTY AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF THE MEMBER STATES OF THE UNITED NATIONS.

ON THAT BASIS, I THINK WHATEVER TERRITORIAL DISPUTES BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE CAN REALLY BE TALKED ABOUT IN PEACE AND DIPLOMACY, RATHER THAN THROUGH WAR.

NO ONE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO POUR MORE FUEL ONTO THE WAR IN UKRAINE, LEADING TO MORE DESTRUCTION AND MORE LOSS OF CIVILIAN LIVES IN UKRAINE.

>> LASTLY, YOUR FOREIGN MINISTER HAS DEFENDED TIES AS YOU ARE DOING WITH RUSSIA .

HE WORLD BECOMES, THE MORE IMPERATIVE IT IS FOR CHINA AND RUSSIA TO ADVANCE RELATIONS.

WE KNOW, ALSO, THAT THERE IS A REAL --IT IS PERCEIVED TO BE A NEW ALLIANCE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

SO THE U.S. HAS SAID THE POTENTIALLY PRESIDENT BIDEN IS INTERESTED IN THE CONVERSATION NOW THAT THE BIG PARTY CONGRESS IS OVER WITH PRESIDENT XI.

WHERE DO YOU THINK RELATIONS ARE?

ARE THEY AS BAD BETWEEN THE U.S. AND CHINA AS IT LOOKS?

>> I THINK CHINESE-U.S. RELATIONS HAVE NEVER BEEN AS BAD AS THEY ARE, AND IT IS ALSO GOING TO FURTHER DETERIORATE IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS, WHETHER IT WILL STABILIZE IN THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION OF THE UNITED STATES IS NOT KNOWN.

HOWEVER, I AM CONFIDENT ABOUT THE GENERAL DIRECTION OF CHINA- U.S. RELATIONS FOR THE MEDIUM TERM AND LONGER TERM, BECAUSE I THINK WASHINGTON IS REALLY WORRIED ABOUT TWO NIGHTMARES, AND THEY COMBINE THE TWO NIGHTMARES TOGETHER.

THEY WORRY ABOUT CHINA SURPASSING THE UNITED STATES IN TERMS OF THE SIZE OF THE ECONOMY, AND THEY ALSO WORRIED THAT AS A RESULT OF THAT, CHINA WILL IMPOSE ITS POLITICAL IDEOLOGY ONTO THE UNITED STATES.

FROM THE CHINESE PERSPECTIVE, THESE TWO THINGS ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED.

CHINA BELIEVES THAT IT WILL CONTINUE TO GROW AND EVENTUALLY THE SIZE OF ITS TERRITORY WILL BE LARGER THAN THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS INEVITABLE.

IT IS A MEGATREND OF OUR WORLD.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, CHINA WILL NEVER IMPOSE ITS POLITICAL SYSTEM OR IDEOLOGY ON ANY OTHER COUNTRY!

ESPECIALLY ON TO THE UNITED STATES!

I THINK BETWEEN CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES, WHAT WE BELIEVE WILL HAPPEN IS TO LIVE AND LET LIVE.

CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES NEED TO LIVE AND LET THE OTHER SIDE LIVE, RATHER THAN I WILL LIVE AT YOUR EXPENSE!

THIS IS NOT -- >> WAIT.

WAIT.

LAST QUESTION.

ONE-WORD ANSWER.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE NEXT TWO YEARS.

DOES THIS MEAN THAT XI JINPING WILL TAKE OVER TAIWAN BY HOOK OR BY CROOK, AS HE SAYS, IN THE >> I THINK THE REUNIFICATION OF CHINA IS A TREND AND THAT PEOPLE ALIVE TODAY WILL LIVE TO SEE THE CHINESE REUNIFICATION.

I HOPE THAT IT WILL BE DONE THROUGH PEACEFUL MEANS, AND I BELIEVE THAT NOBODY SHOULD PRETEND TO BE SURPRISED ONCE CHINA IS REUNITED.

CHINA IS THE ONLY MEMBER OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL, PERMANENT MEMBER STATE WHICH HAS NOT YET ACHIEVED A FULL NATIONAL REUNIFICATION BECAUSE OF THE UNFINISHED CIVIL WAR IN 1949.

IT IS TIME TO ACHIEVE REUNIFICATION FOR CHINA AS A WHOLE.

>> VICTOR GAL, THANK YOU FOR THAT PERSPECTIVE FROM BEIJING.

>>> IN THE YEAR AND A HALF SINCE AMERICA'S IGNOMINIOUS WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN, THE TALIBAN HAVE SCRUBBED AWAY TWO DECADES OF RIGHTS FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS.

NOW REFUGEES WHO HAVE MANAGED TO ESCAPE TO AMERICA FACE THE REAL PROSPECT THAT THEY MAY BE SENT BACK TO LIVE UNDER THE THUMB OF THE TALIBAN.

THE AFGHAN ADJUSTMENT ACT, A BILL TO EXTEND THIS DAY IN THE U.S., IS NOW STALLED IN CONGRESS.

IF IT FAILS, ALMOST 80,000 AFGHAN EVACUEES RISK THEIR FREEDOM AND POSSIBLY THEIR LIVES.

A REFUGEE RUNS THE LUTHERAN IMMIGRATION AND REFUGEE SERVICE, AND SHE JOINS US TO DISCUSS THEIR FATE.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

THIS CONVERSATION IS HAPPENING AT A TIME WHEN THERE ARE MORE THAN 77,000 AFGHAN EVACUEES LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.

THEIR STATUS IS IN LIMBO.

WHY?

WHO ARE THEY?

WHAT IS AT STAKE?

>> YEAH.

SO THE SITUATION IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE URGENT.

THESE ARE THE EVACUEES WHO WORKED ALONGSIDE THE U.S. MILITARY, THE U.S. EMBASSY.

THEY WERE ADVOCATES FOR GENDER RIGHTS, FREEDOM OF PRESS, AND OTHER AMERICAN AND WESTERN VALUES.

QUITE FRANKLY IS FRUSTRATING THAT 18 MONTHS AFTER THE WITHDRAWAL THERE ARE STILL TENS OF THOUSANDS OF AFGHAN ALLIES CAUGHT UP IN AN UNNECESSARY LEGAL LIMBO.

ESSENTIALLY WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT THEY DON'T HAVE A PERMANENT PATHWAY TO LEGAL STATUS.

SO THEY DON'T KNOW IF THEY CAN STAY IN THE U.S. OR WHETHER THEY WILL BE RETURNED TO AFGHANISTAN TO FACE TALIBAN RETRIBUTION.

>> SO YOUR ORGANIZATION, LUTHERAN IMMIGRATION AND REFUGEE SERVICES, HAS RESETTLED ABOUT 14,000 OF THESE FOLKS.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT THAT TRANSITION HAS BEEN LIKE SINCE THE AMERICAN WITHDRAWAL, WHICH WAS, AT BEST, TRAUMATIC.

>> WE HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO MEET SOME INCREDIBLE PEOPLE, PATRIOTS WHO REALLY RISK THEIR LIVES AND THEIR FAMILY'S LIVES TO HELP US IN AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR.

THE PAST FEW MONTHS HAVE BEEN AS HELPING TO FIND AFFORDABLE HOUSING FOR THEM, MOVING THEM INTO THOSE HOUSES, FINDING PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

BUT JUST CANDIDLY, IN TERMS OF THE TOLL OF THE UNCERTAINTY, IT REALLY HAS ADDED IMMENSE STRESS AND ANXIETY TO AN ALREADY DIFFICULT EXPERIENCE REBUILDING.

A YEAR AND A HALF LATER, OUR CASE MANAGERS ARE STILL FEELING THE QUESTION FROM AFGHANS ON A NEARLY DAILY BASIS OF WHEN WILL I KNOW I CAN STAY IN THE U.S. >> SO THE QUESTION ABOUT STAYING, THAT MIGHT SEEM LIKE A SMALL SEMANTIC DIFFERENCE, A LOT OF AMERICANS WATCHING THIS ARE GOING TO SHORTHAND IT AS "REFUGEES."

BUT THE WORD REFUGEE, VERSUS PEOPLE ON HUMANITARIAN PAROLE, IS VERY DIFFERENT.

EXPLAIN THE DISTINCTION.

>> A REFUGEE IS SOMEONE WHO TRAVELED TO A THIRD COUNTRY.

THEY APPLIED THROUGH THE U.N. OR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND WERE ABLE TO RESETTLE IN THE U.S.

BUT WHEN THEY ARRIVE IN THE U.S., ESSENTIALLY THEIR LEGAL PROCESS HAS ENDED, MEANING THAT THEY HAVE BEEN ADMITTED TO THE U.S. AND THEY KNOW THEY WILL STAY HERE FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.

HUMANITARIAN PAROLE IS A TEMPORARY STATUS.

FOR THESE INDIVIDUALS, DEPENDING ON WHAT THE TIME LIMIT THAT WAS ALLOWED IS, IT MEANS THAT THEY WERE ABLE TO STAY HERE FOR A YEAR OR TWO , AND NOW THEY HAVE TO ADJUST THEIR STATUS.

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE BEEN ADVOCATING FOR THE AFGHAN ADJUSTMENT ACT, BECAUSE IT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO CHANGE THEIR STATUS TO A MORE PERMANENT ONE.

CONGRESS HAS DONE THIS FOR EVERY MODERN WARTIME EVACUATION POPULATION BEFORE.

SO IT WOULD BE UNPRECEDENTED FOR US TO NOT DO THIS FOR OUR AFGHAN ALLIES.

>> SO SENATOR CALLED HR ALSO HAS CALLED REPUBLICAN COSPONSORS TO THIS ACT.

WHY IS IT STALLED RIGHT NOW?

>> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

IN THE PREVIOUS CONGRESS WE DID MEET SOME KEY RESISTANCE.

THE BILL SPONSORS AND SUPPORTERS HAVE WORKED IN GOOD FAITH TO ADDRESS THEM.

THAT IS WHY THE AFGHAN ADJUSTMENT ACT INCLUDES MORE SCREENING ON TOP OF THE RIGOROUS PROCESS.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THEY WERE VETTED THROUGHOUT THE EVACUATION AND THE TIME THEY SPENT ON U.S. MILITARY BASES.

BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW NOT ONLY WHO OPPOSES THIS BILL BUT ALSO WHO SUPPORTS IT.

THERE HAS BEEN SUCH ENTHUSIASM FROM VETERANS ORGANIZATIONS, ADVOCATES, FAITH COMMUNITIES, CIVIL SOCIETY GROUPS.

RECENT POLLING SHOWS THAT 76% OF AMERICANS WANT TO DO RIGHT BY OUR AFGHAN ALLIES AND PASS THIS BILL.

>> FOR THOSE WHO MIGHT HAVE SECURITY CONCERNS, WHAT ARE THE ADDITIONAL STEPS THAT HAVE NOW BEEN TAKEN TO ASSUAGE THE CONCERNS OF THESE REPUBLICAN HAVE HAD THESE, AND IF YOU CAN DESCRIBE IN KIND OF A THUMBNAIL THE LAYERS OF VETTING THAT HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED FOR THIS POPULATION?

>> IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE EVACUEES, WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REFUGEES, THEY ARE THE MOST- VETTED IMMIGRANTS WHO ARE ENTERING THE U.S., BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN A LONG, DRAWN- OUT PROCESS.

THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE GOING THROUGH BIOMETRIC CHECKS .

YOU HAVE OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY WORKING CLOSELY TOGETHER WITH THE FBI AND MAKING SURE THAT EVERY DATABASE THAT WE CAN CHECK THESE INDIVIDUALS AGAINST, THAT THESE CHECKS ARE BEING DONE.

THESE ARE ALSO INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE IN U.S. COMMUNITIES ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THANKFULLY WE DON'T HAVE STORIES EVERY DAY ABOUT SOME TERRORIST WHO HAS INFILTRATED OUR COMMUNITY.

THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BECOME OUR NEIGHBORS.

THEY ARE WORKING IN SCHOOLS AND IN HOSPITALS.

THEY ARE WORKING AT THE RESTAURANT THAT WE VISIT LOCALLY.

SO THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO WE EITHER KNEW BECAUSE THEY WORKED ALONGSIDE OUR MILITARY AND EMBASSIES IN SOME OF THE MOST SENSITIVE OPERATIONS ABROAD, OR THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO WE FREQUENTLY GOT TO KNOW DURING THE VETTING AS THEY GOT ON PLANES WHEN THEY WERE ON MILITARY BASES AND IN SO-CALLED THIRD COUNTRY LILY PADS BEFORE THEY CAME TO THE U.S.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT, HARRY, TO STRESS THAT THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH AND WILL GO THROUGH ADDITIONAL VETTING AS A RESULT OF THE ADJUSTMENT ACT.

>> SO IS THERE A SPECIFIC DEADLINE, OR DOES IT DEPEND ON WHEN THESE EVACUEES LAND IN THE UNITED STATES?

WHAT ARE THEY FACING?

>> SO IT DOES DEPEND ON WHEN THEY ARRIVED.

ESSENTIALLY ONCE THEY WERE THEY HAD TWO YEARS FROM THAT TIME FOR AN IN ORDER TO CHANGE THEIR STATUS.

WE ARE COMING UP ON THAT AUGUST DEADLINE FOR MANY OF THEM, PERHAPS SEPTEMBER.

BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT NO IMMIGRATION PROCESS IN THE U.S. IS QUICK.

THAT IS WHY THE SENSE OF URGENCY AND DESPERATION IS ALREADY BEING FELT, AND THAT IS NOT JUST BY OUR CLIENTS!

EVERY DAY WE HEAR FROM LANDLORDS, AND THEY HAVE BEEN HELPFUL IN TERMS OF OPENING UP HOUSING TO THIS COMMITTEE.

THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THESE INDIVIDUALS, SO THERE IS A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY ACROSS THE BOARD.

>> WHERE THESE EVACUEES LOCATED ACROSS THE UNITED STATES?

>> BARON COMMUNITIES ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

BUT IN PARTICULAR, YOU SEE A SIGNIFICANT POPULATION IN PLACES LIKE NORTHERN VIRGINIA, TEXAS.

FOR MANY, THEY MIGHT HAVE HAD FAMILY HERE BEFORE OR THEY KNEW THAT THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT AFGHAN POPULATION IN A CERTAIN COMMUNITY AND GRAVITATED TOWARDS THAT AREA.

BUT IT HAS BEEN FASCINATING THAT WHETHER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NORTH DAKOTA OR OKLAHOMA, THERE HAVE BEEN WELCOMING COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY ENTHUSIASTIC AND GENEROUS IN HELPING AFGHAN FAMILIES FIND A NEW HOME THERE.

>> THERE HAVE ALSO BEEN DIFFERENT VETERANS GROUPS ADVOCATING ON BEHALF OF THESE INDIVIDUALS.

IN ADDITION TO THESE GROUPS, I AM SURE THERE ARE PEOPLE LOBBYING IN CONGRESS TO TRY TO GET THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION MOVING.

WHAT HAVE YOU HEARD FROM LEGISLATORS YOU HAVE HEARD FROM?

>> WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING IS BROAD SUPPORT.

THE HAS BEEN A BIG REASON WHY WE HAVE SEEN SUCH BIPARTISANSHIP IN TERMS OF THE BILLS SPONSORED.

IN THE LAST CONGRESS WE WERE ABLE TO BRING ON 10 SENATE SPONSORS WITH FIVE FROM EACH PARTY.

SO WE ARE ENCOURAGED THAT THE BILL ENJOYS SUCH BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

THE VETERANS GROUPS THAT HAVE REALLY FOUGHT FOR THIS EVERY DAY HAVE BEEN VALUABLE ADVOCATES.

THEY HAVE TALKED ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES OF HOW AN AFGHAN INTERPRETER WRIST THEIR LIFE TO SAVE THEIRS.

SO WE ARE STILL HOPEFUL THAT IN THIS CONGRESS, THAT WE WILL BE ABLE TO GET THE AFGHAN ADJUSTMENT ACT PASSED.

>> I DON'T WANT TO PIT ONE COMMUNITY AGAINST EACH OTHER, BUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS THOUGHT ABOUT THE HUMANITARIAN PAROLE STATUS FOR UKRAINIANS WHO CAME FROM MEXICO.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THIS POPULATION OF AFGHANS HAS NOT GOTTEN THAT TYPE OF SUPPORT?

AND I DO THINK THAT IT IS PROBLEMATIC WHEN YOU SEE DIFFERENT POLICIES THAT ARE PASSED FOR DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES.

WE MADE A PROMISE DURING OUR PRESENCE IN AFGHANISTAN THAT WE WOULD PROTECT THESE FAMILIES, THESE INDIVIDUALS, AND THAT WASN'T A TEMPORARY PROMISE.

SO I THINK IT IS A COMMITMENT THAT THE U.S.

NEEDS TO FULFILL, BUT THAT IS TRUE ACROSS THE BOARD.

WHETHER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT UKRAINIANS FLEEING PUTIN'S INVASION, OR THOSE WHO WORKED ALONGSIDE OUR U.S. MILITARY AND U.S. EMBASSY AND OTHERS, I DO THINK THAT IT IS A PROMISE THAT WE NEED TO FULFILL, AND IT IS THE U.S.

SHOWING GLOBAL HUMANITARIAN LEADERSHIP.

>> IF THE ADJUSTMENT ACT DOES NOT PASS, AND AUGUST COMES AROUND, WHAT DO THESE AFGHAN EVACUEES FACE?

>> I THINK IT DEPENDS A BIT ON WHO IS IN POWER.

ARE HOPEFUL AND FAIRLY CONFIDENT THAT IF WE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, YOU KNOW, FOR THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS, WE DON'T EXPECT ANY DEPORTATION ORDERS, THAT THERE WOULD BE AN EXTENSION OF THE TEMPORARY STATUS, WHETHER THAT IS WHAT WE CALL RE-POLE, OR THEY ARE GRANTED TEMPORARY PROTECTION STATUS IN THE U.S.

SO THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES TO EXTEND THE STATUS BUT IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE UNCERTAINTY AND THE STRESS THAT THESE FAMILIES ARE FACING UNLESS IT IS SOMETHING LIKE A LEGAL, LONG-TERM PATHWAY.

OF COURSE IF IT IS A CHANGE IN ADMINISTRATION, THEN I THINK THAT IT IS CONCERNING WHAT THEIR FUTURE HOLDS.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU HAD ADVISERS LIKE STEPHEN MILLER WHO THROUGH WRENCHES IN THE GEARS IN ORDER TO LESSEN THE NUMBER OF SPECIAL IMMIGRANT VISAS THAT WERE GRANTED.

SO WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN CAME INTO POWER, HE ACTUALLY HAD A MASSIVE BACKLOG OF THESE INTERPRETERS OF, YOU KNOW, VILLA TERRY A.I.D.S.

WHO WERE JUST WAITING IN THE QUEUE.

THEY SHOULD'VE BEEN PROCESSED IN JUST NINE MONTHS.

THE AVERAGE TIME PERIOD WAS ABOUT THREE YEARS.

SO THAT IS WHAT WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT, IS WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU HAVE A CHANGE IN ADMINISTRATION?

THERE IS NO AFGHAN ADJUSTMENT ACT PASSED, AND THESE FAMILIES ARE FACING THE PROSPECT OF BEING RETURNED TO AFGHANISTAN.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE CONCERNS THAT YOU ARE HEARING FROM THE FAMILIES HERE.

THE AFGHANISTAN THAT THEY LEFT IS NOT THE ONE THAT THEY WOULD RETURN TO.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

I THINK THAT IS WHY WE HEAR FROM OUR CLIENTS SUCH GRAVE CONCERNS, BECAUSE FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE THEY FEAR THAT IF THEY ARE RETURNED IT COULD BE A DEATH SENTENCE.

THEY KNOW THAT NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR SERVICE, BUT BECAUSE THEY FLED THE COUNTRY, THEY HAVE A TARGET ON THEIR BACK.

THEY FEAR RETRIBUTION AGAINST THEIR FAMILY FOR ALL OF OUR CLIENTS.

I HEAR ABOUT FAMILY THAT THEY HAVE LEFT BEHIND WHO HAVE BEEN CONTACTED BY THE TALIBAN, OR, YOU KNOW, IN DIFFERENT SITUATIONS HAVE HAD TO FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES AND RELOCATE.

SO IT IS AN INCREDIBLY DAUNTING PROSPECT OF THEIR RETURN.

>> WHAT ABOUT JUST THE STATUS OF WOMEN AND GIRLS AND HOW THAT HAS CHANGED?

HALF THE POPULATION HERE HAS TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT IF THEY HAVE TO GO BACK.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

I HAVE MET SOME INCREDIBLE WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD AMAZING CAREERS IN AFGHANISTAN.

WE ACTUALLY WERE ABLE TO GIVE GRANT TO AN ENTREPRENEUR WHO WAS AMAZING IN AFGHANISTAN.

SHE HAS SUCH DRIVE THAT SHE HAS BROUGHT HERE TO THE U.S.

I AM SURE SHE WILL BE A SUCCESSFUL ENTREPRENEUR.

BUT WHEN I LEAD LET GIRLS LEARN FOR FIRST LADY MICHELLE OBAMA, WE KNEW WHAT THE TALIBAN COULD DO.

WE KNEW HOW THESE DELAYS AND RETURNING GIRLS TO SCHOOL CAN END UP BEING YEARS IF NOT DECADES.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS A LOST GENERATION OF GIRLS WHO DON'T HAVE A CHANCE TO GET AN EDUCATION OR TO REALIZE THEIR POTENTIAL.

SO THE IDEA OF FAMILIES OF GIRLS, OF WOMEN WHO HAVE TASTED THE FREEDOM THAT AMERICA REPRESENTS TO BE RETURNED TO AFGHANISTAN, IT IS JUST A DISMAL PROSPECT AND WE CAN'T LET IT HAPPEN.

>> WHAT ARE THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND THAT THEY ARE NOW DESCRIBING THAT THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT?

>> THEY FEAR FOR THEIR FAMILIES LIVES, BECAUSE THE TALIBAN ARE OBVIOUSLY ROLLING WITHOUT CONSTRAINT.

THEY WORRY ABOUT THE ECONOMIC CONDITIONS BECAUSE OF THE ESSENTIALLY COMPLETE COLLAPSE OF THE ECONOMY , AND ALSO THERE IS NO REAL PROSPECT, THEY FEEL, FOR ADDITIONAL FAMILY MEMBERS COMING TO THE U.S. THAT CONCERNS US, BECAUSE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS IN THE ADMINISTRATION WERE CLEAR THAT EVEN WITHOUT THE MILITARY PRESENCE, OUR MISSION WASN'T COMPLETE UNTIL WE PROTECTED ALL THE ALLIES WHO WORKED ALONGSIDE US IN AFGHANISTAN.

I THINK THAT WE NEED TO FULFILL THAT PROMISE.

IT MAY BE HARD WITHOUT A CONSULATE PRESENCE.

IT MIGHT BE HARD WITHOUT U.S. BOOTS ON THE GROUND, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT FULFILL OUR PLEDGE.

>> I ALSO WANT TO KNOW WHETHER THIS STRIKES A PERSONAL CHORD FOR YOU.

YOU AND YOUR FAMILY LEFT SRI LANKA DURING THAT CIVIL WAR AND MADE YOUR HOMES HERE.

>> IT DOES.

I KNOW THAT WHEN I FIRST MET SOME OF THE EVACUEES, I MET QUITE A NUMBER OF PARENTS WHO , I SAW IN THEM MY OWN PARENTS.

I WAS ONLY NINE MONTHS OLD WHEN MY PARENTS CAME HERE TO THE U.S.

I KNEW THAT IT TOOK A LOT FOR THEM TO MOVE HALFWAY ACROSS THE GLOBE WITH TWO VERY YOUNG KIDS IN THEIR ARMS, NO JOBS, AND JUST $200 IN THEIR POCKETS.

AS A PARENT MYSELF TO A FIVE- YEAR-OLD WITH A BABY ON THE WAY, DUE IN LESS THAN A MONTH, I UNDERSTAND WHY THESE PARENTS MADE THE DECISIONS THAT THEY DID.

BECAUSE OF COURSE ANY AMERICAN PARENT CAN UNDERSTAND THE IDEA OF WANTING A SAFE AND SECURE LIFE FOR YOUR CHILDREN.

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAS BEEN AMAZING IN TERMS OF WORKING WITH THE AFGHANS IS THAT WE SET UP IN NORTHERN VIRGINIA OFFICE, A TEMPORARY LOCATION.

WE HIRED TWO DOZEN STAFF, ALL OF WHOM WERE AFGHAN AND MANY OF WHOM RECENTLY ARRIVED.

THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO, AS THEY WERE SETTLING THEIR FAMILIES, SAID I WANT TO HELP THE NEXT PLANE THAT COMES IN.

THAT JUST REFLECTS THE AMERICAN SPIRIT, THE HUMAN SPIRIT, AND I GUESS THE OTHER PIECE OF IT IS JUST SEEING THE GENEROSITY OF AMERICANS.

WE HAD TENS OF THOUSANDS OF VOLUNTEERS SIGN UP IN A MATTER OF DAYS AND WEEKS TO HELP THESE COMMUNITIES.

TO ME, THAT REMINDS ME OF THE WELCOMING COMMUNITY THAT MY FAMILY, THANKFULLY, EXPERIENCED HERE, THAT GAVE US A NEW HOME.

>> PRESIDENT AND CEO OF LUTHERAN IMMIGRATION AND REFUGEE SERVICES, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, HARRY.

>> FINALLY TONIGHT, THE JOY OF 2020 VISION.

THESE PENGUINS IN A SINGAPORE ZOO ARE SEEING THE WORLD A WHOLE DIFFERENT WAY.

AFTER NOTICING THE ELDERLY KING PENGUINS WERE SUFFERING WITH CATARACTS, A TEAM OF VETS DECIDED TO FIT THEM WITH CUSTOM- MADE CONTACT LENSES!

THEY BELIEVE THAT IT IS A FIRST FOR VETERINARY MEDICINE AND WILDLIFE REHABILITATION.

ZOOKEEPERS SAY THAT THE PENGUINS HAVE REJOINED THEIR COLONY WITH CLEAR VISION AND AN EXTRA SPRING IN THEIR STEP!

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/ AMANPOUR.

YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.