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The Arkansas Times and KUER FM 89.

Hello again everyone.

Thanks very much for joining us.

There's some encouraging news about Arkansas, an COVID-19, some of the numbers are at long last moving in the right direction.

For now, and we'll get to that in a moment.

First controversial legislation unresolved in the previous session is back before the General Assembly.

Stand your ground is the shorthand.

It would significantly change the legal threshold for citizen use of deadly force.

The bill passed the Senate easily, but there's some difficulty in the House joining us.

Are its house sponsor Representative Aaron Pilkington of Knoxville and that's the one in Johnson County, Arkansas and in opposition Representative Vivian Flowers of Pine Bluff to both members.

Thanks very much for being with us.

Mr Pilkington, your the house sponsor will begin with you.

What's wrong with the existing statute?

There's been plenty of testimony that.

You know self defense as it stands now on the statute is is plenty.

So one of the things we're wanting to do is clear up the confusion.

You know what you heard.

Time and time again was that no one you know.

Essentially, people are using stand your ground and they're not applying this duty to retreat to them.

And so when you say there's going to be significant change, I actually say we're moving the needle very slightly just so that we can be a stand your ground state, clear up that confusion, and make sure that we are in line with 30 four other states across the United States, so.

To me it's more about providing clarity for our citizens in Arkansas that they do have a right to stand your ground.

You know someone said, you know I, I don't.

I doubt you're going to have some prosecutor who's going to try to use Dutertre to destroy someone self defense argument.

But you know those things happen before their situations where you know Bob Ballenger Mitchell story where someone you know had the book thrown by the law because they didn't retreat, even though in the situation they thought they had a.

They are right to stay in your ground or they thought they were emit dangerous.

So we're trying to clear up some of the language there and make everyone aware.

And I'd say a lot of Arkansans already assume we're staying your ground state and they're actually shocked to find out we're not.

Miss Flowers will go to you.

Well, I would say that based upon the.

Hundreds of emails and calls that I've received that a lot of people are very clear that we're not a stand your ground state and don't want Arkansas to become a stand your ground state an I think that there are so many issues around stand your ground that everyone's very aware of from the fact that nowhere else is there anything like this in criminal law where somebody will search something and then the burden.

Then shifts to the other person.

So I think there are legal issues that would actually create confusion then Secondly, you know we heard a mountain of testimony from people from all walks of life speaking to issues not only around the legal issues, but also around racial and ethnic disparities, religious disparities in terms of the application of the law which we have seen in other states across the country.

An I would also point to the mental health component that I didn't even think about until I heard.

I think there were at least three people who testified to their concerns about what it would mean for someone to have a perception, an feel threatened, and then you stand your ground to take a life and use lethal force.

And finally, you know, I think the issues around domestic violence and how this law could and would.

Be applied to.

Women weather, you know, the point was made in committee meeting about these instances happening in the home, but there are plenty of instances where women who are victims of domestic violence that take place outside of the home when someone is literally being followed and threatened.

It happens all the time, and so you know, if there really is no need.

And when I say a need, you know.

Both represent Pilkington and Senator Ballenger acknowledged that there have been no cases that have been identified by prosecutors or other law enforcement to indicate that this has been a problem with the weather's been one case.

We have a very strong self defense law and when we know the temperature and the environment around the country, including an Arkansas.

Which is home to the KKK.

I just don't see why in the world we would invite.

Um confusion when there is none right now, well, Mr buildings and what your colleague seems to suggest that far from bringing clarity or he is suggesting.

Asserting that, far from bringing clarity to the situation, it muddles it even further.

Your response.

Well, I I respectfully disagree.

I think like I said, I think it brings clarity.

It's very easy to remember.

You know, if you're in a place where you're legally supposed to be, you're not an aggressor and you're not committing a crime.

You have a legal right to defend yourself and to represent the Flowers points you know.

I think this is a bill to help people defend themselves.

I mean, women who are being stalked by potentially their acts are in a domestic abuse situation.

I want them to be able to stand their ground.

I don't want someone to come back and say Oh well, you should have retreated.

You know you should have, you know, let yourself become a victim and that's what I'm trying to prevent.

Is people being more victims?

You know, I, I do understand that there's there's racist people out there, and things like that.

And I want African Americans, Hispanics, and all minorities to be able to stand their ground and defend themselves.

You know, when this guy brought up?

Was that actually people of color have a higher percentage rate of being able to successfully use the stand your ground to prevent them from going to jail than whites.

It was 69% were successful at using that defense were only 62% of whites, so.

I don't see this as being anything that's particularly one group or the other.

I think it's something that anyone who is in danger and being threatened.

Fear for their lives can use this to make themselves not be a victim, which is what I want to see I want us to be able to stand your ground the state, so I I disagree with the assertion that it models that.

I think it's a very easy way to know when you have a right to senior ground or when you don't, and that's just by simply eliminating this duty to retreat, which is what the bill essentially is.

It doesn't say stand your ground in the title.

Eliminate duty retreat if I may add a footnote here, because both members, both our guests have referred to Mr Ballenger, who is we're talking about, Senator Ballenger there.

Yes, Senator Ballenger, who is a Senate sponsor of the legislation Mr Putin.

What about what is wrong philosophically?

Anyway, with the duty to retreat, given the statutes in the case law regarding self defense in Arkansas?

What's wrong with the duty to retreat?

Well, I think it puts people in situations where they are threatened and they feel that their lives may be in danger and then they're having to make a split decision of whether or not they need to be able to defend themselves or put themselves in a more vulnerable situation where they're trying to leave.

So that's why there's always been the caveat of.

A verb.

Complete safety or what is that?

Who is that?

How can you make that discernment right?

At that moment?

I don't think anyone really can, and so what's interesting you know is studio retreated from common law, which comes over from Britain.

But what's interesting is most Western States and This is why.

See liberal states like Oregon and California have senior ground.

That's because you know as we push West a lot of times people had to defend themselves, and so those were originally called Truman Laws, and the idea was Truman don't retreat.

And so now, of course, that's more often later on became staying your ground, so.

I think what it is is just in America we don't want to make ourselves victims and potentially put ourselves in a situation where we become the victim.

We want to make sure that we're able to defend ourselves.

Or yeah, I think that's why people have issues with it.

Are you concerned as Miss Flowers expressed that the temper of that where these are highly charged times in which we're living?

Political climate is pretty heated.

Are you concerned about that in light of stand your ground.

The stand Your ground will become a license.

No, I'm I'm not concerned about that.

We've always had times in American history where it's been tumultuous and and we've had bitter division, but I think one of the beautiful things about us as a nation is we've always been able to get through those and work through those issues.

I do not believe that this will somehow be matched to light a fire for unrest, and that people become the victims of it.

Like I said, I think this helps out everyone because you know not just white males.

But if you're a woman and minority things like that, you can you stay in your ground.

So defend yourself.

So if you're in a situation where you.

Threatened, you've got the longer side and that's what I think is great about this, but the law is not on our side and and we've seen so many instances and I, you know, even recounted a circumstance that I was in where there was gunfire by someone who felt I shouldn't have been where I was legally allowed to be.

And and then the police came and turned their guns on myself, and the person I was with.

So the law is not always on our side.

And I think that you know there's constant sort of replication of this statement that you can, you you.

You can use stand your ground to defend yourself.

The current law allows people to defend themselves and the duty to retreat is not something whereby if your life is really threatened if someone is actually harming, you puts their hands on you, accost you, has a deadly weapon that you then have to run.

That's not what the law is, and it shouldn't be characterized as such.

You know the way the law is right now?

Certainly you don't have to retreat if you are in your home or near your home, and if you're someplace else and your life is threatened, you have the right to defend yourself.

You don't need the stand your ground law to do So what stand your ground does is allow someone to have a perception that your life might be threatened where a weapon is not evident or.

Where you want to assert, stand your ground where you're actually the aggressor, and we have seen too many circumstances which that never come up.

I mean an with all due respect represented Pilkington.

Neither you or Senator Ballenger will speak to those issues.

Where on the one hand we have no instances in Arkansas that prosecutors have identified that either one of you have identified where the current law is not working, but we've seen.

Examples in many of the states, especially Florida, where the actual aggressor has in turn you stand your ground to skirt.

Accountability and prison time.

Neither one of you has mentioned the words the name Trayvon Martin.

That's on the minds of every American.

Everyone who has sent me an email and called me, especially those I've spoken to bring that up.

I remember where I was.

When Zimmerman got off, I remember where I was when I saw that when I heard the news and saw the news about this child's life being taken.

He was a child walking home.

We just saw a MoD, Aubrey.

So when we talk about the tumultuous times and how somehow America gets over, we've never gotten over it.

And what we would be doing by passing this law is not lighting a fire.

The fire exists.

We will be throwing gasoline on a fire that is already out of control.

Mr Billings, I'll give you the last word, but I want to ask a procedural question as well.

Bill failed in committee.

There's been discussion about a motion on the Florida with to extract, withdraw from committee.

Not unprecedented, but exceptionally rare in Arkansas governance.

What's the status of it?

Well, right now what I'm doing is I'm meeting with fellow legislators to try to see if we can find a way to use the current committee process to get the bill through.

I've told people before extractions.

Still not off the table.

I'm open to all options, you know.

I usually what I've heard from most members is.

We've got a pass in your ground.

We're going to get through.

It's just how does it look and how does it go through?

And can we use the committee process instead of extraction?

I'm sure you saw today.

The Speaker says he expects Stanyer ground to pass and so.

I like to respect the committee process as much as I can, but honestly, when I have to go home to my voters and and they they say why can you get senior ground pass?

If I say well, I want to respect the committee process.

They don't care, they say where's the rubber meets the road?

Am I able to defend me and my family if we're out in public?

If were threatened and.

You know I'm going to.

I'm thinking about them first before the committee process.

Well, the traditionalists on on your side of the Capitol.

Well, in the legislature is a hole, and then I would include the speaker in that just seemed vastly prefer the committee process.

You're saying you're willing to Buck him if need be.

I want to Buckham I'm willing to use the committee process and if we fail to get it through the committee.

Extractions on the table.

I'm not putting anything off the table.

Right now I'm going to use the committee process and go through the traditional channels and and work that way.

I think that's only respectful with our members to do it that way and to exhaust all options before we go to a situation like that, but extractions in the rules for a reason.

We foresee things like that happening.

You know we've got a one to one ratio in the judiciary where we've got a one to four ratio on the House floor, so it's there's a different makeup of each group, and so that's that's important to consider as well.

Miss Flowers.

We've got about 30 seconds, and I'll let you have it to close.

There is no need for this law.

Everyone who I've heard from, including people from Senator Ballenger's District, have said that there is no need for this law.

We know what the temperature is from Washington to Arkansas, and we know that there have been people who have been murdered.

An accountability has been skirted because of this law.

There is no confusion.

Passage would mean death or some.

Again, I have to end it there because we're simply out of time to both our members.

Both our guests thank you very much for being with us.

Come back soon.

Can now the coronavirus took less than a year for the death toll in Arkansas to reach 5000 as it did on Thursday are horrific milestone that, but some of the other numbers in the past several days.

Some have provided some encouragement, some there are and almost certainly will continue to be daily fluctuations in the indices that we follow diagnosis death.

Patients requiring ventilation, but these two the number of Arkansans vaccinated the number recovering and the number of hospitalized.

The trend lines there in recent days have offered some hope.

Joining us now, Barile president of the Arkansas Hospital Association, and Troy Wells, Chief executive of Arkansas Baptist Health System, the states largest gentleman.

Thanks very much for coming aboard again.

Bo will begin with you.

Is the pressure beginning to ease a little bit as these numbers would indicate.

Yes, as we've seen hospitalizations drop in the last two weeks, it's certainly as ease some of the stress in hospitals we've seen him go from 1300, hospitalized with Covid to around 800 this morning, so that's certainly a welcome relief for hospitals and staffing and dealing with covid.

Just in general.

But we are seeing some of the numbers in the intensive care units ICU's kind of level off.

We are hearing of sicker patients out there that are coming in and having longer stays, so that's definitely a concern going forward.

Yeah, and Roy Wells this can fluctuate on all but well it does.

In fact, on a daily basis, what went down can very quickly go back up.

Yeah, we've seen it change actually just this week where we started the week at a reasonably high number and it started coming down to toward mid week.

You have a day that goes up a day that goes down.

And Interestingly, while all the covid numbers are down, it's really encouraging our overall hospital census numbers are about as high as they were during the peak of the pandemic, so I think to your point about sicker and sicker patients showing up with or without covid is a reality in our ICU capacity, at least in certain parts of the state.

Continues to be stressed and that's with our ICU covid numbers slightly declining, so we still have some challenges and and we're still seeing what we've said all along.

And that is that ICU capacity across Arkansas was always hard to find and we're seeing that now.

And so there's.

There's not as much breathing room there as we might believe in terms of.

I see there's a difference between beds and ICU beds.

That's right, ICU beds has always been our challenge here, and even more so now staffing those ICU beds is the real challenge.

Many of the hospitals around the state have expanded their ICU bed capacity throughout the pandemic and that was really good.

To know that you had the beds if you needed him.

The challenge has been, how do you staff those beds and an with other sick patients needing those beds?

Today it's a good thing we have him, but we still have challenges around staffing.

Yeah, Bowral the icy situations to ICU situation state.

What is that?

A mirror of what we're seeing what Mr. Wells see.

It certainly is an to Troy's point.

The governor's Winter Covid Task Force in the Arkansas Department of Health that challenged hospitals across the state to increase their ICU capacity by 10% and hospitals certainly stepped up and increased their ICU pet bed capacity by 19% over the last month and a half ending on January 22nd was the deadline, and that's going from 799 ICU beds now to 950, so definitely positive to have that cushion there in ICU capacity.

Well, if the pressure is the stress is being relieved, at least in terms of of covid, why are we following the precautionary protocols?

Are we achieving something like there?

I asked use the term herd immunity in Arkansas.

Bo will start with you.

Sure, I would say you know it's a national trend that hospitalizations in cases are going down.

Mount vaccinations of health care workers, vaccinations of those 70 and older, and nursing home patients.

Those high risk patients or high risk people are certainly helping the calls.

Also, hospitals across Arkansas or using infusions of monoclonal antibodies.

These antibodies infused into high risk patients or reducing the symptoms and reducing hospitalizations and then, as you say, the cases are going down.

So as those cases go down, we have to.

I have to attribute that to behavior in some ways and and hope that the large gatherings that we probably solve family gatherings in November and December.

Those stops that we've seen the numbers go down well.

Troy wells.

It's Super Bowl weekend.

We've we've had admonitions from one after another health professional.

Well, you know, I think that certainly there's concern about gatherings.

To your point, Steve.

I like in Super Bowl Sunday more to New Year's Eve, however, that I do Thanksgiving and Christmas.

So you might Thanksgiving Christmas.

Imagine elderly grandparents, aunts and uncles gathering together, and they're very susceptible to the disease and to hospitalization from the disease.

I don't think we saw the same numbers of elderly out New Year's Eve, and or will we see them at Super Bowl parties?

So hopefully those who are.

Who are at high risk won't be the ones gathering and therefore may not yield the same types of hospitalizations in the elderly that we may have seen after Thanksgiving or Christmas holiday.

Yeah, gentlemen, back to the issue of staffing A and associated my friend of mine spent.

Within the last several days spent 48 hours in the emergency room before a room could be found for him or made ready for him, and he and his family were told it's not the room.

It's the staff.

You know, we want to make sure that there's enough enough staff to cover upstairs.

As there is in an ER Bay.

Are we still?

Are we still running acute shortages of nurses of technicians of other keep clinical personnel?

Troy Wells will begin with you.

Steve, we are and we were running a critical shortage before COVID-19 appeared in Arkansas and we're going to have shortages going forward.

As far as I can tell, we lossed at Baptist Health between 2019 and 2020.

We lossed more nurses in 2020 than we did in 2019, and most of that loss occurs in the second half of the year when there was high demand for travel nurses throughout the country and very lucrative opportunities for nurses to stop there.

Full time job and go on a 1012 fourteen week nursing assignment for a lot of money and so we had a lot of nurses exiting the state taking on those travel assignments.

Hopefully they'll come back as the as that demand in some of the markets subsides.

But I do think we're going to have shortages of critical nursing for years to come, all right.

Bo.

Yeah when you compare pre covid numbers to to covid numbers, we're currently seeing the ICU nurse demand.

For example.

There's more than 500% compared to pre covid numbers and then the rate of pay for ICU nurses is more than doubled.

If you look at pre covid numbers.

So the competition there between other states, other states, their hospitals and hospitals in Arkansas and then with the travel agencies have driven demand and pricing up well as Troy Wells suggested that this staffing situation could continue well into the end of the post covid.

AUS.

Obviously the impact on the American economy as a whole has been dreadful.

At a minimum, is there any way to even begin to calculate the fiscal stress on the health care system in Arkansas?

The hospitals, the clinics, and of course, the insurance under writers Health Insurance under writers Gentleman Bo.

I don't know that we can get to that number at this time, but if you look back to when Covid started last April and May when hospitals did not do elective or non urgent surgeries, we saw the impact was devastating to hospitals at that time and we were very thankful that Congress stepped in and passed the CARES Act which then administered money from the federal agencies to hospitals and then also the states administered money to hospital.

So all those things helped out.

But we're still running behind and trying to catch up as far as finances for hospitals.

Yeah just wells.

Troy wells.

Yeah, we track our patient volume activity every day and every week and we followed it very closely since the pandemic started and going back to last year when we had a 70% drop in volume when we had to shut down elective cases and we tracked it ever since and we still have parts of our business that are not back.

Emergency Department visits are still down below normal levels pre pandemic.

Some of our inpatient cases are down and now they're coming back sicker unfortunately so and then a lot of the scary part is a lot of the diagnostic things that we do, cancer screenings etc are still not back to prepare.

Endemic level, so the fear is that we have a lot of disease that may be out there waiting for us.

It's going to be problematic in the next year or two to come.

So in fact there could be a post covid surge of more conventional maladies.

You know you cancers, for example, respiratory diseases.

Unfortunately yes.

Gentlemen, unfortunately we are out of time.

We could continue, but the clocks caught up with us.

Please come back again.

Thanks for being part of the program.

Thanks Steve.

And that's it for us for this week.

Thanks very much for joining us.

See you next week.

Support for Arkansas Week provided by the Arkansas Democrat Gazette.

The Arkansas Times and KUER FM 89.