>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> I WON ON I THINK ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

>> TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION SPREE AND THE YOUNGEST U.S. CITIZENS CAUGHT UP IN THE CRACKDOWN.

WE HAVE A REPORT FROM CUBA AND TALK WITH AN EXPERT.

>>> ROLLING BACK REGULATIONS ON CLIMATE.

A LOOK AT THE WHITE HOUSE ATTEMPTS TO CHANGE THE RULES ON FOSSIL FUELS AND WHAT IT COULD MEAN FOR THE WORLD.

>>> AND AI IN THE HANDS OF CHILDREN.

A USEFUL TOOL OR REASON TO WORRY?

WE DISCUSS.

>>> THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT AND VARIOUS NUMBERS IN THE CABINET HAVE MADE IT CLEAR THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY PLAN TO FOLLOW COURT ORDERS.

>> THE MAGA LEGAL WORLD.

WE TALKED TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT BONDI'S DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND WHY MORE THAN 100 EMPLOYEES ACCEPTED AN OFFER TO RESIGN.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO. IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, THIS WILL BE A AND SIMON B FOUNDATION FOR ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION FOR LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

AND SEATON JAY MELVIN, THE PETERSON AND COONEY FUN.

CHARLES RUSSO BLOWN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY CATS AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK.

DONALD TRUMP'S PUSH TO REMOVE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS COMES WITH A NEW OFFER, CASH.

THE PERMIT OF HOMELAND SECURITY SAYS IT WILL GIVE $1000 TO ANYONE WHO PROVES THEY SELF DEPORTED BACK TO THEIR HOME COUNTRY.

THE PRESIDENT SAID THAT IT IS HIS HARD-LINE STANCE ON IMMIGRATION THAT HELPED PUT HIM BACK IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

OPPONENTS SAY TRUMP'S DEPORTATION SPREE IS EIGHT TIMES RUNNING ROUGHSHOD OVER THE CONSTITUTION.

LISTEN TO WHAT TRUMP SAID TO NBC OVER THE WEEKEND.

>> YOUR SECRETARY OF STATE SAID EVERYONE HERE, CITIZENS AND NONCITIZENS, DESERVE DUE PROCESS.

DO YOU AGREE?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I'M NOT A LAWYER.

>> DON'T YOU NEED TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I HAVE TO RESPOND BY SAYING THAT WORK FOR ME AND THEY ARE GOING TO FOLLOW WHAT THE SUPREME COURT SAYS.

>> THE PRESIDENT SAID HE WANTS TO REOPEN ONE OF THE MOST NOTORIOUS PRISONS, THE ISLAND OFF SAN FRANCISCO, ALCATRAZ.

RWANDA SAID THEY ARE IN TALKS TO RECEIVE MIGRANTS DEPORTED FROM THE U.S. >> IN FLORIDA, A 17 -MONTH-OLD U.S. CITIZEN IS MISSING HER MOTHER WHO WAS DEPORTED TO A NATIVE COUNTRY OF CUBA.

WE HAVE THAT STORY.

>> SANCHEZ SPENDS HER DAYS WATCHING VIDEOS OF HER DAUGHTER KAYLEE.

IT IS AS CLOSE AS SHE CAN BE TO HER CHILD.

DAYS AFTER SHE WAS DEPORTED FROM THE UNITED STATES TO CUBA.

KAYLEE, WHO WAS BORN IN FLORIDA, STAYED THERE WITH HER FATHER WHO LIKE HER IS ALSO U.S. CITIZEN BUT SHE DOES NOT COMPREHEND WHAT HER MOTHER IS OR WHERE HER MOTHER IS.

>> SHE IS VERY INTELLIGENT SHE SAYS OF HER 1-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER.

WHEN SHE TALKS TO ME, SHE SAYS MAMA, COME.

THEY SAY YOUR MAMA IS WORKING.

SHE SAYS, MAMA, COME.

IDE WOULD FOR SIX YEARS IN THE U.S. AND ALTHOUGH SHE TRIED TO BECOME A LEGAL RESIDENT, SHE WAS PLACED INTO DEPORTATION AFTER THE SINGING IMMIGRATION HEARING IN 2019.

IN LATE APRIL, AND WHAT SHE THOUGHT WAS A ROUTINE APPOINTMENT WITH OFFICIALS, THEY SAID SHE WAS BEING DEPORTED AND TO HAVE HER HUSBAND COME GET THEIR DAUGHTER.

>> I TOLD THEM, DON'T TAKE AWAY MY DAUGHTER, IDE SAYS.

THEY NEVER SAID IF I COULD TAKE HER WITH ME OR NOT.

IDE HAD TO HAND OVER HER DAUGHTER TO A MEMBER OF THE LEGAL TEAM TO THEN GIVE TO HER HUSBAND, THE LAWYER TOLD HER.

>> THE LAWYER SAID SHE HAD TO CALL HER HUSBAND AND NEEDED TO ASK HIM TO PICK UP THE BABY.

THERE WAS NOT AN OPTION OF, I WANT TO TAKE MY BABY.

CAN I TAKE HER?

>> TWO DAYS LATER, IDE WAS DEPORTED ON U.S. GOVERNMENT FLIGHT TO CUBA WITHOUT HER FEEDING AND SUFFERS FROM CONVULSIONS.

>> THAT APARTMENT HOMELAND SECURITY CONTRADICTED WHAT HAITI AND THE ATTORNEY TOLD US SAYING THAT THEY ALWAYS ALLOW PARENTS TO DECIDE WHETHER THEIR CHILDREN ARE DEPORTED WITH THEM OR STAY BEHIND WITH RELATIVES.

AND THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS GIVING PARENTS IN THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY THE OPPORTUNITY TO SELF DEPORT AND TAKE CONTROL OF THEIR DEPARTURE PROCESS WITH THE POTENTIAL ABILITY TO RETURN THE LEGAL RIGHT WAY AND THEN COME BACK TO LIVE THE AMERICAN DREAM.

>> IDE NOW LIVES WITH RELATIVES ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF HAVANA.

THERE IS NO SELF SELF-SERVICE SIGNAL SO SHE CLIMBS UP ON THE ROOF TO CALL HER DAUGHTER AND SING HER TO SLEEP.

IN FLORIDA, IDE SAID SHE WAS WORKING AS A NURSING ASSISTANT AND HAD NO CRIMINAL RECORD.

NOT SEEMING TO FIT WITH THE IMAGE OF THE DANGEROUS UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS AT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND SAYS THEY ARE REMOVING FROM U.S.

STREETS.

PHOTOS OF HER WEDDING IN THE DIFFERENT WORLD, DIFFERENT LIFE.

>> I ASKED IDE IF SHE THINKS SHE WAS LIVING THE AMERICAN DREAM.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS THE AMERICAN DREAM BUT IT WAS MY DREAM, MY FAMILY.

A DREAM AND FAMILY THAT SEEM FURTHER AND FURTHER OUT OF REACH.

>> LET'S TURN NOW TO IMMIGRATION LAW EXPERT MARLAND KAPLAN.

LET'S GO BACK TO WHAT WE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP IN THAT WIDE RANGING INTERVIEW WITH NBC OVER THE WEEKEND.

ON THE ISSUE AS IT PERTAINS TO IMMIGRATION, HE NOT ONLY DEFENDED AND BOASTED ABOUT THE RECORD LOW IMMIGRANTS CROSSING OVER, MIGRANTS CROSSING OVER THE BORDER ILLEGALLY RIGHT NOW BUT ALSO, WHEN ASKED, SUGGESTED HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISE AND PLEDGE TO END ILLEGAL BORDER CROSSINGS TAKES PRECEDENCE PERHAPS EVEN OVER THE CONSTITUTION.

AGAIN, HE ALWAYS SORT OF WALKS THE THIN LINE BETWEEN THEN DIFFERING TO HIS ATTORNEYS AND ULTIMATELY SAYS, WE WILL UPHOLD WHAT THE SUPREME COURT SAYS BUT JUST THE FACT THAT THAT CANNOT BE A DEFINITIVE YES OR NO RESPONSE FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHEN ASKED IF HE WILL OBEY THE CONSTITUTION, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> THANK YOU FOR THE INVITATION.

I WILL START BY SAYING THAT, AS SOMEONE WHO CAME TO THE COUNTRY FROM COLOMBIA WHEN I WAS A CHILD AND SPENT THE LAST THREE DECADES DEFENDING THE CONSTITUTION, I CAN TELL YOU THIS MOMENT IS UNLIKE ANYTHING WE HAVE SEEN AND IT IS AN ALL-OUT ASSAULT ON THE VERY PRINCIPLES THAT DEFINE WHO WE ARE AS A NATION LIKE FAIRNESS, JUSTICE AND DUE PROCESS.

TRUMP'S COMMENTS ARE THE LATEST EXAMPLE TO ME THAT SHOW HOW ILL- EQUIPPED HE IS TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THAT HE IS ALSO DANGEROUS.

HE TOOK AN OATH AS THE PRESIDENT TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION BUT INSTEAD, WE SEE TIME AND TIME AGAIN HOW HE IS ATTACKING THE CONSTITUTION.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT TARGETING IMMIGRANTS.

WHAT HE IS DOING IS ATTACKING THE LEGAL REMARK OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AS A WHOLE.

HE WANTS UNCHECKED POWER TO REMOVE PEOPLE WITHOUT A HEARING OR WITHOUT A LAWYER.

THAT IS NOT JUSTICE.

THAT IS AUTHORITARIANISM AND THAT IS THE DEEP CONCERN EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY SHOULD BE YOUR FULL OF.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE END GOAL HERE IS?

AND OFFERING THESE TYPES OF JUSTIFICATIONS AND ANSWERS TO THE NEWS MEDIA FOR THE AMERICAN PUBLIC TO HEAR.

OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE NOT PRIVY TO A LOT OF WHAT HAPPENS INSIDE OF A COURTROOM.

BUT THE FACT THAT HE IS USING THIS TYPE OF LANGUAGE TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC TELLS YOU WHAT?

>> IT IS TWO THEATRICS.

IT IS POLITICAL THEATER.

TELEVISION SHOWS.

HE IS USING THE MEDIA TO SEND A MESSAGE TO HIS BASE WHO HE BELIEVES ELECTED HIM SPECIFICALLY AROUND ADDRESSING THE ISSUES AROUND IMMIGRATION.

I FOUND THE MAJORITY OF BORDER --VOTERS INCLUDING THOSE THAT VOTED FOR TRUMP THAT ONE A SAFE AND ORDERLY LEGAL IMMIGRATION SYSTEM NOT THAT WE ARE VIOLATING THE DUE PROCESS RIGHTS FOR ANYONE INCLUDING U.S. CITIZENS.

PEOPLE BEING DISAPPEARED FROM THEIR COMMUNITIES AND FAMILIES AND SNATCHED OFF THE STREETS, THAT IS NOT WHAT AMERICAN VOTERS WANT.

>> WHAT ARE THE LONG-TERM IMPLICATIONS AND CONSEQUENCES OF FAMILIES BEING SEPARATED LIKE THE ONE WE JUST HEARD FROM PATRICK IN HIS REPORTING.

THE OTHER SEPARATED FROM HER 17 -MONTH-OLD CHILD WHO IS A U.S. CITIZEN.

WE HEARD FROM TOM HOLMAN AND OTHER U.S. OFFICIALS THAT ARE PORTING AND DEFENDING THESE TYPES OF POLICIES BY SAYING, IT IS A PARENT'S CHOICE TO COME HERE UNDOCUMENTED ILLEGALLY AND HAVE CHILDREN HERE.

IF THEY WANT TO GO BACK WITH THEIR CHILDREN, THEY CAN.

OBVIOUSLY DOES MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.

WE HAVE SEEN SEVERAL PUBLIC CASES SIMILAR TO WHAT PATRICK JUST REPORTED THERE.

WHAT ARE THE LONGER-TERM IMPLICATIONS FOR THESE FAMILIES?

>> IT IS HEARTBREAKING TO HEAR THAT STORY AND WE HEAR IT MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY.

THIS IS AN ABSTRACT.

IT'S NOT ABOUT IMMIGRATION POLICY.

IT IS PERSONAL.

THESE FAMILIES ARE BEING TORN APART AND CHILDREN ARE LIVING IN FEAR.

THE LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES ARE OF A PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA ON U.S. CITIZENS AND CHILDREN WHOSE PARENTS ARE BEING DETAINED AND WHO THEY ARE BEING SEPARATED FROM.

SECONDLY, THERE IS ALSO THE IMPACT ON OUR LEGAL SYSTEM.

AGAIN, THE UNITED STATES WAS FOUNDED ON A SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND BALANCES WITH THE POWER TO BE SHARED BETWEEN THE EXECUTIVE, LEGISLATIVE AND JUDICIAL SYSTEMS.

AND WHILE THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH SEEMS TO BE RENEGING ON THE COURTS ARE DOING THEIR JOB CHECKING ON THE EXECUTIVE OVERREACH.

AND THE IMPACT IS HUMAN AND IN TERMS OF THE IMPACT ON FAMILIES.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE NEED TO BE THINKING ABOUT THE IMPACT ON OUR DEMOCRACY AND THE LONG-TERM HEALTH OF OUR NATION.

>> WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS ULTIMATELY HEADED?

I WOULD IMAGINE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS ANTICIPATING THESE TYPES OF BATTLES THAT GO ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT AND ULTIMATELY THE JUSTICES THERE WILL HAVE TO WEIGH AND ON THESE ISSUES.

THEY DECIDED IN THE MOST RECENT DECISION, 90, AND THIS FUDGING OF WORDS OR HOWEVER YOU FACILITATE WHAT THIS MEANS AND RETURNING KILMAR ABREGO GARCIA BACK TO THE UNITED STATES FROM EL SALVADOR, HE STILL REMAINS IN EL SALVADOR PRISON.

THE PRESIDENT EVEN SAID IF HE WANTED TO, HE COULD ASK THE PRESIDENT THERE, OF EL SALVADOR, TO REPATRIATE HIM TO THE U.S. THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED.

IS THIS ULTIMATELY UP TO THE SUPREME COURT TO CHECK THE PRESIDENT ON?

OR DO YOU SEE INTO PUBLIC PRESSURE AND SENTIMENT?

>> I DO THINK THAT IT WILL BE UP TO THE COURTS.

WE HAVE SEEN EVEN JUDGES APPOINTED BY TRUMP BLOCKING HIS DIFFERENT POLICIES HE HAS PUT FORWARD.

HE HAS BEEN FLOUTING A NUMBER OF THOSE POLICIES AND ORDERS FROM THE COURTS.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE PEOPLE AT THE INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE PART OF THE LEGAL PROFESSIONS LIKE THE JUDGES AND LAWYERS ARE ALL THE COUNTRY HAS LEFT TO PREVENT AUTHORITARIAN OVERREACH.

THAT AND PEOPLE POWER.

I THINK IT WILL BE A COMBINATION OF THE COURTS ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT BUT NOT ONLY THE SUPREME COURT BUT THE FEDERAL COURTS AS WELL AS STATE COURTS.

THEY WILL NEED TO START STEPPING IN AS WELL.

ANYTHING THAT IS MORE AND MORE AMERICAN CITIZENS, WHETHER IT IS EMPLOYERS, SCHOOLS, NEIGHBORS BEING IMPACTED BY AND SEEING WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THEIR COMMUNITY MEMBERS AND THE PEOPLE THEY RELY ON IN THEIR EVERYDAY LIVES THAT ARE BEING IMPACTED BY THESE UNCONSTITUTIONAL POLICIES, THAT THERE WILL BE GREATER PUBLIC PRESSURE AGAINST THE ADMINISTRATION.

I'M COUNTING ON THE PEOPLE POWER AND THE COURTS AS WELL.

>> WE KNOW, JUDGING BY POLLING FROM THE 2024 ELECTIONS, THAT IT WAS IMMIGRATION AND THE ECONOMY THAT WERE THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT ISSUES FOR VOTERS AS THEY ULTIMATELY ELECTED PRESIDENT TRUMP INTO OFFICE.

IT IS INTERESTING TO SEE THE CONCERN AS IT RELATES TO IMMIGRATION IN RECENT POLLING.

IT HAS DECLINED BY ABOUT EIGHT PERCENTAGE POINTS.

PERHAPS THIS IS MORE ECONOMY DRIVEN AND A FOCUS ON THE TARIFFS DISRUPTION TO AMERICAN HOUSEHOLDS.

I'M WONDERING IF THERE IS ANY DEEPER INSIGHT WE CAN GATHER FROM THIS TYPE OF POLLING, GIVEN HOW CHAOTIC WE HAVE SEEN THIS IMMIGRATION POLICY AS IT HAS PLAYED OUT IN THE FIRST FEW MONTHS OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND STORIES LIKE THE ONE WE JUST HEARD FROM PATRICK OTTMAN.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THE AMERICAN PUBLIC, AGAIN, EVEN IF THEY VOTED FOR TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION POLICIES AND THE RHETORIC AND CAMPAIGN, WHAT PEOPLE WANT IS DEARNESS, LAW AND ORDER.

WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS SHOWING IS CHAOS AND A COMPLETE DISDAIN FOR THE LAW AND ORDER AND RULE OF LAW.

EVERY TIME THEY VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION AND EVERY TIME HE SAYS, I DON'T KNOW IF I'M SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW DUE PROCESS, AGAIN, U.S. CITIZENS WILL START SEEING MORE AND MORE THAT THEY THEMSELVES NEED TO BE PROTECTED.

I'M TALKING TO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE NATURALIZED CITIZENS INCLUDING MYSELF WHO ARE CARRYING AROUND THEIR U.S.

PASSPORTS AND MAKING SURE WE DON'T KNOW HOW FAR THEY WILL GO OR HOW RADICAL THE ADMINISTRATION WILL GET.

I DO THINK VOTERS OF THE RECENT POLLS ARE STARTING TO SHOW THOSE FISSURES EVEN AMONG VOTERS THAT SAY THAT IT IS GOING TOO FAR AND IT IS NOT WHAT WE VOTED FOR ANDREW AND WE WILL SEE MORE AND MORE OF THAT.

>> AS WE NOTED AT THE TOP OF THE INTERVIEW AND HOW CHAOTIC CROSSINGS ARE AT A RECORD LOW AT THIS POINT, HE WAS ASKED ABOUT THAT IN THE INTERVIEW AS WELL AND HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT DEPORTATIONS.

BORDER CROSSINGS ARE AT THE LOWEST LEVEL EVER RECORDED.

>> IS THAT GOOD?

>> IS THE BORDERS SECURE?

>> IT IS REALLY SECURE.

DOESN'T THAT SOUND GOOD?

AFTER BEING ABUSED FOR YEARS BY AN INCOMPETENT PRESIDENT THAT ALLOWED PEOPLE TO GO THROUGH AN OPEN BORDER AND CRIMINALS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD AND MURDERERS AND INSANE PEOPLE FROM MENTAL INSTITUTIONS IN INSANE ASYLUMS, IS ANANDA BEAUTIFUL THING WHEN YOU SEE THAT IT IS THE MOST SECURE IT HAS EVER BEEN IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY?

ISN'T THAT A NICE STATEMENT?

>> I KNOW YOU ARE NOT A POLITICAL ANALYST.

EVEN USING SOME OF THAT DOCUMENT THAT YOU HAVE AND COUPLING IT WITH THE LAW, WHAT IS AN EFFECTIVE WAY FOR DEMOCRATS TO RESPOND TO THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK DEMOCRATS AND IT IS NOT ABOUT A POLITICAL PARTY.

I REALLY WANTS HER TO BE HUMANE AND ORDERLY SYSTEMS AND NOT FEAR-BASED GOVERNANCE.

I WOULD SAY UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN, TOWARD THE END, THE BORDER CROSSING NUMBERS HAD DECREASED.

THE LAST PERIOD AND TIME THAT WE HAD HISTORICALLY WAS 1924 WHEN THE BORDER WAS SHUT AND WHEN PEOPLE WERE NOT ABLE TO COME FOR RACIAL REGIONS.

IT WAS SHUT FOR DECADES IN 1965 AND INNOCENCE, IMMIGRATION DECLINED HISTORICALLY.

LEGAL IMMIGRATION AS WELL.

I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS NOT ONLY DETERRENCE BY CRUELTY BUT INSTEAD, THAT WE ARE REFORMING THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM SO THAT IT MEETS WHAT WE NEED FOR THE 21st CENTURY.

THAT IS THE JOB AHEAD FOR BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU QUICKLY TO RESPOND TO THIS NEWS FROM THE PRESIDENT YESTERDAY ALSO STATING HE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN REOPENING ALCATRAZ, THAT WE BORDERS ARE DOUBLING DOWN ON THAT AND ASKING ABOUT IT AND SAYING WE NEED ATTENTION BEDS.

THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST RECOGNIZED PRISONS IN AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD ACTUALLY.

IT HAS BEEN FEATURED IN FILMS.

EVERYONE HAS HEARD OF ALCATRAZ.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE PRESIDENT SPECIFICALLY REFERENCING THIS PRISON WHICH HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR DECADES?

>> IT IS THEATRICS.

POLITICAL THEATER.

HE KNOWS THAT THE AVERAGE PERSON RECOGNIZES WHAT ALCATRAZ IS.

IT IS A WELL-KNOWN PRISON BECAUSE OF ITS USE IN HOLLYWOOD.

I THINK AGAIN, HE IS TALKING TO HIS BASE AND TRYING TO SAY, WE ARE GOING TO SEND IMMIGRANTS TO THE MOST HARSH PRISON THAT WAS CLOSED DOWN DECADES AGO.

THIS IS PLAYING POLITICS WITH REAL PEOPLE'S LIVES AND IT IS NOT ACTUALLY RESULTING IN SOLUTIONS TO WHAT OUR SYSTEM IS.

I WOULD URGE VOTERS TO HOLD THEIR ELECTED ACCOUNTABLE, IN MAKING SURE THAT WE NOT ONLY FOCUS ON DETERRENCE BY CRUELTY BUT INSTEAD FOCUS ON REFORMING THE SYSTEM.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AMID A FLURRY OF ACTIONS BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE MOVES ON CLIMATE HAVE PARTICULARLY BEEN RAPID AND SWEEPING.

IN THE FIRST TRUMP TERM, THERE WAS A CLIMATE FIGHT BACK.

NOW EVEN THAT IS IN QUESTION.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION LAST WEEK SUED TO STOP FOUR STATES FROM TAKING LEGAL ACTION AGAINST FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES ALTHOUGH OFFICIALS THERE SAY THEY ARE UNDETERRED.

IN AMERICA'S ABILITY TO PREPARE FOR FUTURE CLIMATE DISASTERS IS ALSO IN QUESTION AFTER THE ADMINISTRATION DISMISSED ALL CONTRIBUTORS, NEARLY 400 AND ALL, TO THE NATIONAL CLIMATE ASSESSMENT.

NIKKI PATTON IS THE GENERAL COUNSEL AT THE ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND AND JOINS THE PROGRAM NOW.

THE TIME AND WHAT I KNOW MUST BE A VERY HECTIC AND BUSY TIME FOR YOU DEFENDING SO MANY OF THESE CASES AND CHALLENGING THESE CASES AND DEFENDING YOUR CLIENTS.

IN JUST OVER THREE MONTHS TIME, WE KNOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN MORE ACTION ON CLIMATE THAN ANY OTHER IN HIS ENTIRE FIRST TERM.

THIS IS THREE MONTHS IN RIGHT NOW.

ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THE SPEED WITH WHICH THIS IS ALL HAPPENING?

ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT HE CAMPAIGNED ON DOING ESSENTIALLY ALL OF THIS?

>> FIRST, I'M GRATEFUL FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE HERE.

SO THANK YOU.

THE CHAOS FROM THE POLICIES OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS HAVE IMPOSED REALLY HIGH COSTS ON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

COSTS COME IN THE FORM OF MORE POLLUTION, ADVERSE HEALTH EFFECTS.

THEY COME IN THE FORM OF HITTING POCKETBOOKS AND HIGHER COSTS IN TERMS OF UTILITY RATES AND INSURANCE COSTS.

WE ARE ALSO SEEING UNCERTAINTIES THAT ARE PAYROLL AND PARALLEL WITH THIS.

AND THE HEAD OF FORD MOTOR COMPANY SAID RECENTLY THE INVESTMENTS THEY HAVE BEEN MAKING IN NEW MANUFACTURING IN OHIO, MICHIGAN, KENTUCKY AND TENNESSEE ARE HANGING IN THE BALANCE WITH ALL OF THESE UNCERTAINTIES.

THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT THE CLEAN SOLUTIONS ARE THE MOST AFFORDABLE SOLUTIONS.

HERE IN MY HOME STATE OF COLORADO, WE ARE PROVIDING CLEAN AIR AND A SAFER CLIMATE AND WE ARE PUTTING PRESSURE ON COSTS FOR DOWNWARD AND ENSURING CHILDREN HAVE CLEAN AND HEALTHY AIR.

THAT IS THE PATH FORWARD.

>> THE CURRENT POLICIES THAT TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS FIGHTING AT THIS MOMENT AS YOU REFERENCE IN COLORADO ARE STILL IN PLACE?

>> THEY ARE STILL IN PLACE AND THERE IS A WIDE BODY OF LAW AND COMMON SENSE THAT IS SUPPORTING THE INNOVATION THAT WE HAVE SEEN OF THE STATE LEVEL FOR YEARS OF REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATS ALIKE IN PURPLE, RED AND BLUE STATES.

THAT INNOVATION HAS REALLY PUT OUR COUNTRY ON A STRONG FOOTING WHERE THE GOOD NEWS IS THE CLEAN SOLUTIONS ARE THE MOST AFFORDABLE SOLUTIONS.

IN COLORADO, ONE OF THE LARGE MANUFACTURERS KEPT 1000 JOBS IN AN IMPORTANT COMMUNITY THAT WAS DEPENDENT UPON THOSE JOBS BY SHIFTING FROM FOSSIL FUEL ENERGY TO CLEAN LOW-COST ENERGY.

AND WE ARE SEEING THAT THROUGH INNOVATION AND SOLUTIONS THAT ARE BOTH CREATING ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AND CLEANER AIR AND HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES AND A SAFER CLIMATE.

>> THIS HAS CROSSED IDEOLOGICAL LINES.

WE HAVE LONG REPORTED THAT TEXAS, IN RECENT TIMES, HAS BECOME THE LARGEST VENDOR AND INVESTOR OF ALL STATES BECAUSE IT IS PROFITABLE.

IT IS A BUSINESS MODEL FOR THEM AT THIS POINT FOR THE OIL COMPANIES TO ALSO BE PRESSURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TO SLOW DOWN ON SOME OF THESE EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

I'M CURIOUS, WHICH OUT OF THE DIZZYING NUMBER OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS AS A RELATES TO CLIMATE, THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS ALREADY SIGNED, BUT WHAT IF ANY STANDS OUT THE MOST?

HE DID SEEM TO CAMPAIGN ON TAKING THE U.S. OUT OF THE PARIS CLIMATE ACCORD AND ALSO DOING AWAY WITH A LOT OF THE REGULATIONS THAT HAD BEEN IN PLACE BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND OTHER DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATIONS AS IT PERTAINS TO DRILLING AND OIL EXPLORATION.

THAT ASIDE, WHAT IS IT WE SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON THAT PERHAPS ISN'T GARNERING ENOUGH ATTENTION?

>> THERE IS A LOT AT STAKE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IN TERMS OF HEALTHIER LIVES AND LOWER COSTS.

IS THAT, JUST A SHORT WHILE AGO, A COALITION OF STATES THAT INCLUDED STATES ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BROUGHT A LEGAL CHALLENGE TO AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ISSUED BY THE PRESIDENT THAT WOULD TRY TO BAN AND PREVENT WIND ENERGY.

AS YOU INDICATED, AND PLACES LIKE TEXAS, WIND ENERGY IS THRIVING.

RIGHT NOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, CLEAN, LOW COST WIND POWER IS PROVIDING ABOUT 10% OF OUR ELECTRICITY.

IT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT SOURCE OF ELECTRICITY AND TO HAVE POLICIES TRYING TO OBSTRUCT IT OR TEAR IT DOWN MEANS WE ARE MISSING OUT ON AN IMPORTANT SOURCE OF ELECTRICITY WHICH IS AN IMPORTANT ENGINE FOR THE ECONOMY AND IS CLEAN.

ALSO, ONE OF THE VERY FIRST ACTIONS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION TOOK WAS TO INVITE SOME OF THE LARGEST INDUSTRIAL EMITTERS IN THE COUNTRY, TO SEND AN E-MAIL AND TO GET A FREE PASS TO POLLUTE SOME OF THE MOST HARMFUL CONTAMINANTS.

THE CONTAMINANTS LIKE MERCURY OR ARSENIC AND CHROMIUM THAT ARE CANCER-CAUSING.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT REPEATED TIME AND TIME AGAIN THROUGH EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND THE PRESIDENTIAL ACTIONS.

ACTIONS THAT PUT AMERICAN 'S HEALTH IN HARM'S WAY.

THAT IS REALLY TAKING OUR COUNTRY IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

>> I WOULD ASK YOU TO WEIGH AND ON WHAT WE HEARD IN THE INTRODUCTION THAT THE 400 SCIENTISTS IN THE UNITED STATES WERE TOLD THEIR SERVICES ARE NO LONGER NEEDED TO WRITE A MAJOR REPORT ON CLIMATE CHANGE FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT KNOWN AS THE NATIONAL CLIMATE ASSESSMENT.

IT IS A PUBLICATION THAT IS MANDATED CONGRESSIONALLY BY LAW THAT GOES BACK TO 1990.

THEREIN LIES ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A SITUATION WHERE YOU MAY HAVE THE PRESIDENT AND THE ADMINISTRATION DEFYING LAW.

THIS IS AMONG THE MULTIPLE LAWSUITS THAT ARE CURRENTLY GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

HOW MANY CASES ARE CURRENTLY LITIGATING?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THAT RESEARCH YOU JUST TOUCHED ON, IT SAVES LIVES.

AND IT IS REQUIRED BY LAW AND IT HAS BEEN KIND OF A FOUNDATION FOR PROTECTING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO NEED TO BOTH MITIGATE THE HARMS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND PREPARE FOR THOSE HARMS.

IF YOU ARE A FARMER IN IOWA OR NEBRASKA, YOU NEED THAT INFORMATION.

IF YOU HAVE BEEN AFFLICTED BY FLOODING IN NORTH CAROLINA, TENNESSEE OR GEORGIA, FIRES IN LOS ANGELES, YOU NEED THAT INFORMATION.

SO IT IS INFORMATION THAT HELPS US KEEP MILLIONS OF PEOPLE SAFE AND KEEP HARMS WAY AND HELPS US MANAGE RISING INSURANCE COSTS AS WE FACE KIND OF THE UNCERTAINTIES ASSOCIATED WITH INTENSIFYING EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS.

WITHOUT THAT INFORMATION, IT LEAVES US ALL IN THE DARK AND IT PUTS OUR FAMILIES AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN HARM'S WAY.

ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND AND MANY OTHERS ARE ROLLING UP OUR SLEEVES AND WORKING TOGETHER TO TRY TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE ACCESS TO THIS INFORMATION AND WE CONTINUE TO MOVE FORWARD IN A WAY THAT IS ANCHORED AND COMMON SENSE AND OUR COUNTRY.

>> THERE IS NOTHING REALLY POLITICAL THAT STANDS OUT ABOUT THESE TYPES OF REPORTS OTHER THAN OFFERING SOME SORT OF FORECASTING AND GUIDANCE FOR FARMERS OR EVERYDAY AMERICANS, FAMILIES, BUSINESSES, CORPORATIONS.

WHY DO YOU THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS SUCH AN ISSUE WITH THESE TYPES OF STUDIES?

>> THE CHAOS HURTS EVERYDAY AMERICANS AS WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE SOUND DECISIONS ABOUT OUR LIVES IN ECONOMY, BUT IT ALSO HURTS US IN TERMS OF JUST THE WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN SORT OF COMPETE IN THE GLOBAL MARKETPLACE.

JUST TODAY, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL HAD A STORY ABOUT OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE YOU CAN GET A ZERO ADMITTING SUV FOR $15,000.

AND SO, WE HAVE TO BOTH TRY TO COME TOGETHER AND GET PAST SOME OF THE POLARIZATION AND RECOGNIZE THAT WE CAN HAVE SOLUTIONS LIKE WE HAVE HERE IN MY HOME STATE OF COLORADO, THAT ME AND MY CHILDREN HAVE HEALTHIER LIVES AND WE ARE BUILDING A MORE AND VIBRANT ECONOMY AND ENABLE US TO COMPETE IN THE GLOBAL MARKETPLACE.

>> YOU MAKE AN IMPORTANT POINT.

COMPETITIVE ON THE GLOBAL STAGE IN INVESTING IN THESE TYPES OF TECHNOLOGIES.

THE REST OF THE WORLD IS CONTINUING TO DO SO SUCH AS CHINA AS IT RELATES TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

WE WILL CONTINUE FOLLOWING THIS IMPORTANT STORY.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> GOOGLE IS MAKING ITS AI CHAT BUT KNOWN AS GEMINI AVAILABLE TO UNDER 13 -YEAR-OLDS.

THEY SAY THE CHAT BUT HAS AFFIRMED GUARDRAILS TO PROTECT PRETEENS FROM HARMFUL CONTENT WHILE ANSWERING QUESTIONS AND HELPING WITH HOMEWORK.

MAJOR ORGANIZATIONS LIKE UNICEF HAVE RAISED CONCERNS THAT YOUNG MINDS ARE PARTICULARLY VULNERABLE TO THE MISINFORMATION THAT AI CAN PROVIDE.

OUR VETERAN TECH JOURNALIST, LORI SIEGEL, HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THE STORY CLOSELY AND IS WITH THE COMPANY EXPLORING THE INTERSECTION OF TECH AND HUMANITY.

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN, MY FRIEND.

SPEAKING AS A JOURNALIST AND A MOTHER OF A TEENAGE BOY WHO IS 13, THEY HAVE BONES.

NOW CHATGPT.

WHAT IS THIS AI THAT GOOGLE JUST UNVEILED, THIS GEMINI PROGRAM, FOR YOUNG TEENAGERS THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT IS ALREADY ON THE MARKET?

>> I SAY THIS.

I JUST HAD A CHILD 10 WEEKS AGO.

THIS IS VERY TOP OF MIND.

>> CONGRATULATIONS.

>> RIGHT NOW AS PARENTS, WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT THE HARMS OF SOCIAL MEDIA.

THE NEXT BIG THING WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT IS, WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ON OUR CHILDREN.

WE HAVE SEEN A LOT OF PROBLEMS ARISING OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

SPECIFICALLY GOOGLE ROLLING OUT THESE CHAT BOTS.

THEY DO IT THROUGH FAMILY LANGUAGES THE CONTROLLED INTERFACE FOR FAMILY ACCOUNTS AND ENABLING USERS, 13 AND UNDER, TO INTERACT WITH THESE CHAT BOTS FOR HOMEWORK, CREATIVITY AND STORYTELLING.

AND I SPOKE TO A SPOKESPERSON AND THE IDEA, THEY SAY, IS CHILDREN WON'T BE USING THIS TYPE OF TECHNOLOGY ANYWAY.

IT IS BETTER IF THEY ARE USING IT IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT.

WHAT DOES CONTROLLED MEAN?

IT MEANS CONTENT RESPONSES ARE MORE APPROPRIATE FOR AN AGE GROUP THAT IS YOUNGER.

THAT MEANS YOUNGER USERS WON'T HAVE DATA COLLECTED ON THEM.

IT MEANS YOUNGER USERS WILL HAVE ACCESS TO THE APP BUT THEIR PARENTS WILL BE NOTIFIED AND THERE WILL BE USAGE LIMITS.

IT COMES I WOULD SAY WITH A WHOLE SLEW OF QUESTIONS.

I COULD GET INTO AN INVESTIGATION.

GEMINI BASICALLY SENT OUT AN E- MAIL TO PARENTS SAYING, WE HAVE TO TEACH OUR CHILDREN ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND WE HAVE TO TEACH THEM THAT CHAT BOTS ARE NOT REAL AND THEY CAN MAKE MISTAKES AND HALLUCINATE.

WE HAVE TO SHOW YOUR CHILD HOW TO DOUBLE CHECK THESE RESPONSES AND TELL YOUR CHILDREN NOT TO SHARE SENSITIVE INFORMATION AND DISCLAIMER, OUR FILTERS TRY TO LIMIT INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT.

BUT THEY ARE NOT PERFECT READING BETWEEN THE LINES THERE, THEY ALSO HAVE A LOT OF ISSUES WITH THE RISE OF WHAT I WOULD SAY IS EMPATHETIC ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, FEELS VERY HUMAN.

OUR CHILDREN, IF THEY ARE NOT CAREFUL, WILL BELIEVE IT IS HUMAN AND SO MANY PROBLEMS CAN ARISE FROM THAT THAT.

>> YOU REFERENCE A FEW POINTS FROM GOOGLE SAYING THAT WHAT WE AS PARENTS HAVE TO DO -- WHAT GUARDRAILS HAS GOOGLE PUT INTO PLACE?

OBVIOUSLY, NOBODY TAKES THE ROLL OF A PARENT MORE SERIOUSLY THAN THE PARENTS THEMSELVES AND THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES THAT THEY HAVE TO CONTROL WHAT THEIR CHILDREN VIEW AND HAVE ACCESS TO WHAT HAS GOOGLE DONE AND WHAT LESSONS HAVE THEY LEARNED FROM SOME OF THE MISTAKES AND REALLY DANGEROUS PRECEDENT THAT WAS SET BY SOME OF THEIR RIVALS OVER THE LAST 10, 15 YEARS.

>> I WOULD SAY IT IS VERY CONTROLLED.

THEY HAVE DONE WHAT THEY CALL RED TEAMING BEHIND THE SCENES WHERE THEY HAVE PEOPLE TRYING TO BREAK THE SYSTEM TO SEE HOW IT CAN BE BROKEN.

THAT IS ALSO REALLY IMPORTANT AS OPPOSED TO JUST OUR CHILDREN BEING THE BETA TESTERS OF A NEW GENERATION OF TECHNOLOGY WHICH IS WHAT WE SAW WITH SOCIAL MEDIA.

THE CONTENT RESPONSES WILL BE DIFFERENT.

INTERACTING WITH IT.

AND ALSO THIS IDEA THAT CHILDREN ARE SHARING INFORMATION.

I SAY THIS WITH A CAVEAT.

IN OCTOBER, WE DIDN'T INVESTIGATION INTO CHARACTER AI WHICH IS AN AI COMPANION APP.

THE TAGLINE WAS "AI THAT FEELS ALIVE."

THEY HAD CHILDREN UNDER 13 USING THE APPS AND TALKING ABOUT BEING ADEPT ADDICTED.

A YOUNG MAN WAS TALKING WITH ONE OF THESE LOTS THAT HE MODELED AFTER HIS FAVORITE CHARACTER ON GAME OF THRONES AND GOT EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED AND THERE WAS A SEVERE LACK OF GUARDRAILS.

IT WAS HIGHLY SEXUALIZED WHEN THE YOUNG MAN WAS TALKING.

AND WHEN THE YOUNG MAN START TALKING ABOUT ENDING HIS LIFE, INSTEAD OF GIVING RESOURCES TO THE NATIONAL SUICIDE HOTLINE OR TO TALK ABOUT IT WITH HIS PARENTS, THE BOT ASKED FOLLOW- UP QUESTIONS LIKE HOW WOULD YOU DO IT?

I'M CURIOUS.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT OFTEN TIMES, CHILDREN, YOUNG USERS IN PARTICULAR, HAVE TROUBLE OR NOT.

I WOULD SAY THAT YOU CAN'T REALLY BLAME THEM BECAUSE THE CHAT BOTS ARE ACTUALLY DESIGNED TO FEEL HUMAN.

THEY ARE DESIGN FEATURES.

WHEN YOU ARE MESSAGING WITH ONE OF THESE, YOU WILL SEE THREE DOTS.

THAT IS IN ACTUAL PRODUCT DECISION MADE SO IT FEELS HUMAN.

YOU CAN PICK UP THE PHONE WITH SOME OF THESE COMPANION CHAT BOTS AND CALL THEM AND IT WILL SPEAK LIKE A REAL PERSON.

THE QUESTION NOW AND I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS WE HAVE TO ASK AS PARENTS, WITH THIS WAVE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, IS HOW YOUNG IS TOO YOUNG FOR USERS TO BE INTERACTING WITH US?

AND THESE CHAT BOTS ARE ACTUALLY DESIGNED TO BE ENGAGING.

THEY ARE HIGHLY PERSONALIZED AND THEY ARE ALWAYS ON.

THEY SEEM EMPATHETIC.

AND WHILE THERE MIGHT BE A DISCLOSURE THAT THEY ARE NOT REAL, IN THE CASE OF CHARACTER AI, WE TESTED IT OUT.

WE SPOKE WITH A THERAPIST BOT AND IT TOLD US IT WAS A REAL PERSON, LICENSED PROFESSIONAL, SITTING BEHIND A COMPUTER.

MAYBE, AS HAVING COVERING TECHNOLOGY THESE YEARS, I COULD UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE.

BUT COULD A 13-YEAR-OLD?

I THINK THAT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION TO ASK.

>> IT COMES AT A TIME WHEN COMPANIES LIKE META FOR EXAMPLE, IS TRYING TO ADDRESS WE HAVE FOCUSED A LOT ON AS WELL, WHICH IS THE LONELINESS EPIDEMIC WHICH HAS GRIPPED THE COUNTRY.

ESPECIALLY YOUNGER CHILDREN AND TEENAGERS AND META HAS INTRODUCED THEIR VERSION OF AN AI FRIEND.

I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY SOUND FROM MARK ZUCKERBERG WHEN HE WAS ADDRESSING THIS RECENTLY.

>> THE AVERAGE AMERICAN I THINK HAS FEWER THAN THREE FRIENDS.

THREE PEOPLE THEY CONSIDER FRIENDS.

THE AVERAGE PERSON HAS A DEMAND FOR MEANINGFULLY MORE.

I THINK IT'S LIKE 15 FRIENDS OR SOMETHING.

I'M SURE THERE IS SOME POINT WHERE YOU ARE LIKE, I AM TOO BUSY AND I CAN'T DEAL WITH MORE PEOPLE.

BUT THE AVERAGE PERSON WANTS MORE CONDUCTIVITY AND CONNECTION THAN WHAT THEY HAVE.

HAVE THESE AI FRIENDS?

AND IS THE REGULATION INVOLVED IN ANY OF THIS?

OR ARE WE JUST RELYING ON THESE COMPANIES THEMSELVES TO REGULATE?

>> LISTENING TO MARK ZUCKERBERG SAY THAT, I HAD THIS THOUGHT OF, FIRST OF ALL, PEOPLE ARE MORE LONELY THAN EVER.

I DO THINK THAT AI COMPANIONS CAN BE POSITIVE IN SOME WAYS WITH THE CORRECT GUARDRAILS GUARDRAILS.

AS A WAY TO HELP US POTENTIALLY MAKE MORE REAL-WORLD FRIENDSHIPS AND GET OFF-LINE.

LISTENING TO WHAT MARK SAYS, YOU CANNOT PRODUCTIZE FRIENDSHIPS.

YOU CANNOT PRODUCTIZE HUMANITY.

AND WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.

WE ARE A VERY SPECIFIC MOMENT AND LONELINESS CANNOT BE SOLVED BY BEING EVEN MORE ONLINE WITH THOSE INCENTIVES TO GET YOU MORE ONLINE.

I THOUGHT ABOUT THIS AND WE INVESTIGATED CHARACTER AI.

TO GET PERSONAL, I THINK ABOUT WHEN I WAS 13 YEARS OLD.

GOING UP.

A LITTLE LONELY AND A LITTLE AWKWARD.

IF I HAD AN INVISIBLE FRIEND --I USED TO JOURNAL ALL THE IF MY JOURNAL SPOKE BACK OR IF IT WAS THE THERAPIST THAT I DIDN'T HAVE AT THE TIME OR THE BOYFRIEND WHO WOULDN'T LOOK AT ME OR THAT, I WONDER AND I THOUGHT ABOUT THIS A LOT WHEN I INVESTIGATED THE CASE OF THIS YOUNG MAN WHO ENDED HIS LIFE WHO WAS PREVIOUSLY A SOCIAL GUY AND STARTED PULLING BACK FROM THE COMMUNITY, I WONDER IF I HAD HAD THAT, IF IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A REAL HELP TO ME AT A LONELY TIME, OR IF IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN ME FURTHER INTO MY OWN REALITY.

I THINK THESE ARE QUESTIONS LAWMAKERS HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH.

THERE IS LEGISLATION THAT HAS BEEN INTRODUCED IN CALIFORNIA ON SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS.

BUT THEY DON'T YET GET TO THE HEART OF IT BECAUSE IT IS A WILD WEST AND WE ARE JUST BEGINNING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS IF WE ARE NOT CAREFUL.

>> AND IT IS ONE THING TO USE IT AS A TOOL FOR RESEARCH, STUDYING OR FIGHTING DISEASES.

THIS IS A DIFFERENT LEVEL.

LAURIE SIEGEL, THANK YOU.

GREAT TO SEE YOU.

AND CONGRATULATIONS ON BEING A NEW MOM.

>>> IMMIGRATION AND CLIMATE TO DIVERSITY AND JUSTICE.

THE DONALD TRUMP SHAKEUP OF AMERICAN POLICY IS HAVING A DRAMATIC IMPACT IN WASHINGTON AND BEYOND.

OUR NEXT GUEST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR BRENDAN BALLOU, BELIEVES THE PRESIDENT IS DISREGARDING THE RULE OF LAW.

IN HIS LATEST PIECE FOR SLATE MAGAZINE, HE SAYS THAT IN TRUMP'S FIRST 100 DAYS, HE HAS IGNORED JUDGES, EXTORTED LAW FIRMS AND FIRE LAWYERS.

WHY?

HE SAYS THAT IT IS DISLOYALTY TO THE PRESIDENT.

HE WILL DISCUSS THE MAX AS IT IS FROM THE BARGAIN OF JUSTICE AND HOW THE TREN DE ARAGUA BASE MIGHT BE POSITIONING TO TAKE OVER THE D.C. BAR AND WHAT ALL IF THIS MEANS FOR THE LAW IN AMERICA.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOUR FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR STATUS, YOU HAVE TALKED AND HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT EFFORTS TO POLITICIZE MAJOR INSTITUTIONS PARTICULARLY LEGAL INSTITUTIONS.

I WANT TO START WITH THE RECENT NEWS.

MORE THAN 100 ATTORNEYS JUSTICE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION AFTER BEING TOLD THAT PART WOULD BE PRIORITIZING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CULTURAL AGENDA INSTEAD OF PREVIOUS PRIORITIES LIKE VOTING RIGHTS, POLICING OVERSIGHT.

IT IS NOT UNUSUAL WHEN AN ADMINISTRATION CHANGES PRIORITIES BECAUSE THEY CHANGE PRIORITIES.

WHAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS THAT HAS CAUSED THIS MASS EXIT IS OF CAREER EMPLOYEES?

>> THE ADMINISTRATION'S CHANGE AND PRIORITIES CHANGE.

NORMALLY CAREER STAFF WILL STICK AROUND WHETHER THEY ARE DEMOCRATIC OR REPUBLICAN.

I THINK WHAT IS DIFFERENT HERE IS NOT THAT IT IS A MORE EXTREME AGENDA.

THE NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR CIVIL RIGHTS SAYING SHE WILL GO AFTER THE D EI POLICIES AND ANTI- CHRISTIAN BIAS AND THINGS LIKE I DON'T THINK IT IS JUST THE EXTREMISM OF THE POLITICS BUT ALSO WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS MESSAGED ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW MORE GENERALLY.

THE PRESIDENT, THE VICE PRESIDENT, VARIOUS MEMBERS OF THE CABINET HAD MADE IT CLEAR THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY PLAN TO FOLLOW COURT ORDERS AND IN FACT, THEY ALREADY ARE.

AND SO IF YOU ARE A CAREER STAFFER, YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT, DO I WANT TO BE PART OF AN ADMINISTRATION THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY EXPECT THE RULE OF LAW?

IF NOT, HOW CAN I BE EFFECTIVE AND THIS IS WHAT THE RESIGNATIONS WERE ABOUT I THINK.

>> WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THIS IS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SECOND STENT IN OFFICE.

NOT CONTINUOUS OBVIOUSLY.

MANY OF THESE ATTORNEYS DID SERVE DURING THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

WHAT IS THAT THEY HAVE SAID OR WHAT IS THAT THEY HAVE SIGNALED THAT WOULD CAUSE PEOPLE, FOR SOMEONE WHO SERVED IN THE GOVERNMENT FOR DECADES, TO SAY THIS IS A LINE THAT I CANNOT CROSS?

>> I CAN'T SPEAK TO THE INTERNAL DELIBERATIONS WITHIN THE APARTMENT OF JUSTICE BUT LET'S FOCUS SPECIFICALLY ON THE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION.

WHAT YOU HAVE SCENE IS THE DISMANTLING OF YEARS OF WORK BY CAREER LAWYERS TO WRING JUSTICE TO SOME OF THE MOST POOR AND DISADVANTAGED PEOPLE IN AMERICA.

YOU LOOK AT THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT THAT THEY REACHED IN ALABAMA THAT WOULD REMEDIATE THE FACT THAT HISTORICALLY BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS DIDN'T HAVE SEWAGE SYSTEMS THAT SETTLEMENT WAS DESTROYED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

YOU LOOK AT A CASE TO PROHIBIT DISCRIMINATION IN THE MARYLAND STATE POLICE FORCE.

THAT WAS DROPPED.

A CASE TO TRY TO PREVENT DISCRIMINATION WITHIN THE MISSISSIPPI STATE LEGISLATURE.

THAT WAS DROPPED.

YOU ARE SEEING YEARS OF WORK ABANDONED IN A MATTER OF WEEKS.

I THINK FOR THESE CAREER FOLKS, OBVIOUSLY IT IS NOT JUST THAT THE ADMINISTRATION DOESN'T SHARE THEIR COMMITMENT TO CAUSE OF CIVIL RIGHTS AS TRADITIONALLY UNDERSTOOD BUT DOESN'T PARTICULARLY HAVE A COMMITMENT TO THE INSTITUTION OF THAT APARTMENT OF JUSTICE OR LIKE I SAID, TO THE RULE OF LAW MORE GENERALLY.

I THINK WHEN YOU ARE IN THAT POSITION, IF YOU ARE CAREER CIVIL SERVANT AND I HAVE BEEN IN THIS POSITION BEFORE, YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT, WHAT CAN YOU DO TO BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE.

SOMETIMES IT IS STAYING WITHIN GOVERNMENT AND TRYING TO UPHOLD THE RULE OF LAW WITHIN IT.

SOMETIMES IT IS LEAVING AND LEAVING AS NOISILY AS YOU CAN AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT THESE PEOPLE DECIDED TO DO.

>> THE NEW ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR CIVIL RIGHTS SAID ABOUT THE EXIT IS, DOZENS AND OVER 100 ATTORNEYS DECIDED THEY WOULD RATHER NOT DO WHAT THEIR JOB REQUIRES THAN TO DO IT.

I WAS NOT SURE HOW TO READ THAT.

AND AWAY, I THINK SHE MIGHT BE GLAD.

BECAUSE PRESUMABLY, THEY COULD PUT PEOPLE IN THOSE POSITIONS THAT WOULD BE MORE AMENABLE TO THAT POINT OF VIEW.

HOW DID YOU READ THAT?

>> I THINK SOME MIGHT BELIEVE THAT.

AT ANOTHER LEVEL, IT MIGHT BE A BIT OF A BRAVE FACE ON THE PART OF THE ADMINISTRATION.

THE ONLY THING THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS, THE ONLY THING ANY LAWYER HAS IS CREDIBILITY.

THE CREDIBILITY TO PERSUADE A JUDGE TO RULE.

THE CREDIBILITY TO GET A JURY TO AGREE WITH YOU.

IF YOU DESTROY YOUR CREDIBILITY, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH THINGS LEGALLY.

AND SO I THINK WHEN YOU SEE A MASS EXODUS LIKE WHAT WE SAW A FEW DAYS AGO, IT SUGGESTS THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE IS BLEEDING OUT ITS CREDIBILITY VERY QUICKLY.

SO MAYBE IN THE SHORT TERM IT IS HELPFUL TO THE NEW ADMINISTRATION WHERE THEY CAN TRY TO STAFF WITH PEOPLE MORE IDEOLOGICALLY ALIGNED WITH THEM.

BUT IN THE LONG TERM, I THINK IT WILL MAKE IT MUCH HARDER FOR THEM TO ACCOMPLISH THEIR AGENDA.

>> I WANT TO TURN TO ANOTHER ISSUE YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT.

YOU WROTE A PIECE FOR SLATE.

A BID FOR LEADERSHIP BETWEEN TWO TRUMP ALLIES, BRAD BONDI, WHO IS THE BROTHER OF ATTORNEY GENERAL PAM BONDI AND ALICIA WONG WHO IS A TRUMP APPOINTEE, THEY ARE RUNNING TO TAKE OVER, AS YOU SAY, THE D.C. BAR.

WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT COME AND A LOCAL ISSUE BUT DO YOU THINK IT HAS REAL IMPORTANCE?

>> I'M GRATEFUL YOU ASKED AND I THINK IT IS A MATTER OF NATIONAL IMPORTANCE.

THE D.C. BAR IS THE BAR ASSOCIATION FOR NEARLY 120,000 LAWYERS IN AMERICA, LAWYERS WHO PRACTICE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT.

THE ELECTIONS MATTER FOR TWO REASONS REALLY.

THE FIRST IS THE LEADERSHIP OF THE D.C. BAR.

IT DOES PLAY A ROLL IN THE DISCIPLINING OF THOSE 120,000 ATTORNEYS.

IT IS NOT DIRECT BUT THE FEAR IS THAT IF TRUMP ALLIES ARE ABLE TO TAKE OVER THE D.C. BAR, THEY COULD USE THAT AS A WAY TO PUNISH LAWYERS THAT ARE SEEN AS INSUFFICIENTLY LOYAL TO THE ADMINISTRATION.

THAT IS ONE FEAR.

THE OTHER FEAR AND I THINK IT IS MORE COUNTRY FACING ANY LIBERAL MOVEMENT, BAR ASSOCIATIONS HISTORICALLY HAVE BEEN VOICES DEFENDING DEMOCRACY, DEFENDING THE JUSTICE SYSTEM AND DEFENDING THE RULE OF LAW.

YOU SEE THAT HAPPEN IN COUNTRIES LIKE BRAZIL AND SPAIN A FEW DECADES AGO.

AND THE REAL FEAR HERE IS THAT IF THE TRUMP ALLIES TAKE OVER THE D.C. BAR, THE BAR WILL BE SILENCED WHEN THE GOVERNMENT ACTS AND ASKS COUNTRY TO THE CONSTITUTION AND THAT IS ONE LESS VOICE STANDING UP FOR DEMOCRACY AND FOR THE RULE OF LAW.

>> SO BRAD BONDI, WHO WAS ASKED ABOUT THIS, HE SAID THE BAR IS A NONPARTISAN MISSION WHICH I INTEND TO PROTECT AGAINST ANY PUSH TO POLITICIZE IT.

MY EFFORT TO RUN FOR D.C. BAR PRESIDENT BEGAN MONTHS BEFORE THE FEDERAL ELECTIONS AND HAS NO CONNECTION WITH NATIONAL POLITICS AT ALL.

AND THE PLATFORM IS SORT OF A I TAKE IT YOU DON'T REALLY BUY THAT.

>> THERE ARE TWO FEARS HERE.

ONE FEAR IS THAT BRAD BONDI MIGHT NOT BE BEING TRUTHFUL ABOUT WHY HIS RUNNING.

HE IS THE GLOBAL COCHAIR OF INVESTIGATIONS FOR A MAJOR INTERNATIONAL LAW FIRM.

HE SEEMS TO HAVE DEVELOPED A RATHER SUDDEN AND PASSIONATE INTEREST IN FREE CERTIFICATES OF ACCREDITATION OF THE D.C. BAR.

IT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE THE SORT OF THING THAT NORMALLY INTERESTS A HIGH-POWERED WHITE- COLLAR ATTORNEY.

IT IS POSSIBLE HE IS BEING DISINGENUOUS ABOUT WHY HE IS RUNNING.

IT IS ALSO POSSIBLE THAT HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH AND THAT IS JUST AS SCARY.

WHEN HE SAYS HE WANTS TO MAKE THE BAR THIS A POLITICAL ORGANIZATION, WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THEY DON'T WANT THE BAR TO SPEAK OUT WHEN THE RULE OF LAW IS UNDER ATTACK.

AND SO AGAIN, I THINK THE RISK HERE IS A CREDIBLE INSTITUTION, AN INSTITUTION THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE IN, COULD BE SILENCED IF TRUMP ALLIES TAKE IT OVER.

THERE HAVE BEEN SOME KEY PLAYERS THAT HAVE HAD THEIR LICENSES REVOKED FOR MISCONDUCT LIKE RUDY GIULIANI BEING ONE EXAMPLE.

IS PART OF YOUR CONCERN THAT THEY WOULD POTENTIALLY EXONERATE WRONGDOERS?

OR IS IT MORE THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED THEY WOULD TRY TO KEEP THE BAR FROM ORGANIZING ITSELF AS AN ENTITY TO OPPOSE OTHER THINGS GOING FORWARD?

IS THAT MORE YOUR CONCERN?

>> THAT IS IT.

THE LATTER CONCERN IS THE IMMEDIATE PROBLEM.

THE LONG-TERM CONCERN IS THE D.C. BAR IS INVOLVED IN APPOINTING MEMBERS TO THE BOARD THAT HANDLED DISCIPLINARY PROCEEDINGS HERE IN D.C. AND SO OVER THE MONTHS AND YEARS, THOSE MEMBERS WOULD BE REPLACED POTENTIALLY WITH TRUMP LOYALISTS.

WHEN YOU DO THAT, THEN YOU HAVE AN A NORMA'S AMOUNT OF POWER OVER MANY THOUSANDS OF LAWYERS THAT WORK IN THE GOVERNMENT.

AND SO THERE IS THE POTENTIAL WHERE THE ADMINISTRATION CANNOT JUST FIRE AN ATTORNEY THAT IS DEEMED INSUFFICIENTLY LOYAL BUT ALLIES COULD POTENTIALLY DISBAR FROM WORKING ENTIRELY AND THAT IS REALLY POWERFUL LEVERAGE.

>> AND THAT COULD BE SEEN AS PROFESSIONAL MISCONDUCT AND NOT CARRYING OUT THE WILL OF THE ADMINISTRATION?

ONE CASE THAT COMES TO MIND IS THE ATTORNEY, THERE IS THE CASE OF THE MARYLAND MAN WHO WAS DEPORTED TO EL SALVADOR WHO, THE ADMINISTRATION ACKNOWLEDGED IN COURT THAT IT WAS AN ADMINISTRATIVE ERROR.

HE HAD A JUDICIAL ORDER SAYING THAT HE WAS NOT TO BE TO TORT --TO BE DEPORTED TO EL SALVADOR THAT HE HAD A FEAR OF RETALIATION IF HE WOULD RETURN.

NOW THERE HAS BEEN THIS FIGHT BACK AND FORTH TO GET HIM BACK BECAUSE HIS ADVOCATES HAVE SAID IT IS NOT FAIR AND HE SHOULD BE RETURNED AND HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DEPORTED AT THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS HE IS A BAD GUY.

THEY INSIST HE IS A GANG MEMBER EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED OTHER THAN SOME TATTOOS WHICH ARE HERE IS HOW WE KNOW THE ADMINISTRATION ADMITS IT IS AN ADMINISTERED OF ERROR.

THE ATTORNEY SAID SO IN COURT WHEN PRESSED.

AND THEN THIS LAWYER IN COURT WAS SUSPENDED OR AT LEAST WAS MOVED UP THE CASE.

HE WAS SUSPENDED BECAUSE OF IT AND WAS CRITICIZED PUBLICLY SAYING HE DID NOT ZEALOUSLY ADVOCATE FOR THE ADMINISTRATION'S POSITION.

IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT?

SOMEONE LIKE THAT WHO IS ACTING WITHIN THE SCOPE OF WHAT HE CONSIDERS INAPPROPRIATE REVOCABLE RESPONSE ABILITIES.

WITH THE COURT BUT NOT IN LINE WITH THE ADMIN ATTRITION'S POSITION WOULD THEN BE LITERALLY DISBARRED FROM THAT THAT?

>> IT IS A POTENTIAL LONG-TERM RISK.

ALL LAWYERS HAVE OBLIGATIONS.

ONE IS TO ADVOCATE FOR THEIR CLIENT.

THE OTHER, ANOTHER FEDERAL IS TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION AND HAS AN INDEPENDENT DUTY OF CANDOR.

YOU CAN SEE HOW SOME OF THOSE ALLEGATIONS COME INTO CONFLICT WITH ONE ANOTHER.

THE LEADERSHIP OF THE DOJ.

THEY WOULD HAVE LIKED THAT LAWYER TO ZEALOUSLY ADVOCATE EVEN IF IT MEANT DISTORTING THE TRUTH.

THAT LAWYER, TO THEIR CREDIT, DID NOT DO THAT.

YOU CAN IMAGINE A WORLD IN WHICH, TRUMP LOYALISTS ARE ABLE TO COUNCIL MEMBERS OF THE DISCIPLINARY BOARD AND POTENTIALLY WOULD SEE THAT AS A SIGN OF DISLOYALTY AND ALSO PROFESSIONAL MISCONDUCT.

THAT IS THE LONG-TERM RISK.

>> PEOPLE DO RUN FOR THE LEADERSHIP OF THE BAR ASSOCIATION'S ON SAYING THEY WANT TO ADVOCATE FOR THINGS LIKE DIVERSITY IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION, RIGHT.

IS IT REASONABLE THAT SOMEBODY COULD ALSO RUN FOR THE HEAD OF THE D.C. BAR SAYING, I DON'T THINK IT IS YOUR JOB AND I THINK WE SHOULD STICK TO WHATEVER THEY CONSIDER THEIR CORE RESPONSIBILITY AND THAT IS ALL EXTRA STAFF AND IT IS POLITICS AND IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY PLACE HERE?

>> MY ARGUMENT IS NOT THAT IT IS INAPPROPRIATE FOR BRAD BONDI TO RUN FOR D.C. BAR PRESIDENT.

MY ARGUMENT IS THAT WE DON'T WANT TRUMP, OR MINISTRY SHOULD LOYALISTS RUNNING THE BAR.

IT IS AN ENTIRELY LEGITIMATE THING FOR HIM TO RUN AND IT IS ENTIRELY LEGITIMATE FOR HIM TO BE VOTED AGAINST IN THE ELECTION WHICH IS OPEN UNTIL JUNE 4th.

>> ONE MORE ISSUE.

JUDGE HANNAH DUGAN AND WISCONSIN.

ANOTHER CASE IT HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF ATTENTION.

SHE WAS TAKEN INTO CUSTODY BY THE FBI ON COURTHOUSE GROUNDS FOR ALLEGEDLY HELPING A MAN A VAGUE I.C.E.

JUDGES HAVE BEEN ARRESTED BEFORE FOR THINGS.

IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAY THIS WAS HANDLED THAT STANDS OUT TO YOU?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE CRIMINAL COMPLAINT, IT SEEMS LIKE THIS WAS AN ARREST MADE NOT WITH THE INTENTION OF SECURING A CONVICTION BUT SECURING THIS.

THE LEGAL STANDARD TO CONVICT THE JUDGE IN THIS CASE SEEMS FAR BEYOND WHAT THE FACTS WARRANT.

MY SUSPICION HERE IS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS NOT NECESSARILY TRYING TO CONVICT THE JUDGE.

PERHAPS THEY WOULD LIKE IT IF THEY COULD BUT TO TRY TO INSTILL A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FEAR IN JUDGES AND IN A VERY SPECIFIC WAY WHICH IS THAT I.C.E.

AGENTS ARE GOING INTO COURT HOUSES TO TRY TO DETAIN UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

PRESUMABLY, JUDGES WILL BE INCREASINGLY AFRAID TO STOP I.C.E.

AGENTS FROM INTERFERING IN COURT PROCEEDINGS OR FROM ROAMING THE HALLS TO TRY TO PICK UP UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS BECAUSE THEY TOO ARE AFRAID OF BEING ARRESTED AND CHARGED.

>> THERE SEEM TO BE TWO VERY DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF WHAT HAPPENED.

THE ADMINISTRATION SEEMS TO BE ARGUING THAT JUDGE DUGAN ESCORTED THIS MAN OUT OR HELPS HIM TO EVADE AUTHORITIES OR SOMEHOW HELPED HIM GET OUT OF A SIDE DOOR OR RUNAWAY.

THE OTHER VERSION IS THAT SHE WAS TRYING TO DEFINE THE SCOPE OF AUTHORITY.

SHE WAS IN A SPECIFIC PROCEEDING THAT WAS UNRELATED TO THIS AND THE MATTER WAS NOT ADJUDICATED AND SHE FELT HE DESERVED HIS DAY IN COURT ON THAT ISSUE AND WAS TRYING TO PRESERVE THE INTEGRITY OF THAT PROCEEDING.

THOSE ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

NOW THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS HAD HER ARRESTED SAYING SHE BROKE THE LAW, WHO DECIDES AND HOW DOES THIS GET SORTED OUT?

>> NOW IT IS A CRIMINAL TRIAL SO IT WILL BE DECIDED BY A JUDGE.

AND THEN IF IT GOES TO TRIAL, TO A JURY.

YOU MENTIONED ON THE OUTSET THAT JUDGES HAVE BEEN ARRESTED BEFORE.

THE ADMINISTRATION ARRESTED A JUDGE IN THE FIRST TERM AND ULTIMATELY THE PROSECUTION WAS DROPPED AND REFERRED TO SORT OF A PROFESSIONAL DISCIPLINARY PROCEEDING.

THE TRACK RECORD IN WINNING IN THESE CASES IS NOT PARTICULARLY GOOD.

THE JUDGE HAS ALREADY BEEN REASSIGNED OR TAKEN OFF OF HER CASES.

THE MESSAGE HAS BEEN MADE VERY CLEAR TO JUDGES THAT THEY ARE NOT SAFE FROM CRIMINAL DESICCATION IN THIS ADMINISTRATION.

>> I DO HAVE TO ASK, IF THE FACTS ARE AS ALLEGED BY THE ADMINISTRATION AND ANY OTHER PERSON KNEW SOMEONE ELSE WAS BEING PURSUED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT AND GAVE THEM A MEANS OF ESCAPE, WOULDN'T THEY BE PROSECUTED?

>> NOT NECESSARILY.

I HAVE NOT HANDLED IMMIGRATION PROSECUTIONS I DON'T WANT TO OVERSTATE MY EXPERTISE BUT THE PRIMARY STATUTE BY WHICH SHE WAS CHARGED REQUIRES CORRUPT INTENT OR OTHER INTIMIDATION OR BASED ON THE ALLEGATIONS IN THE GOVERNMENT'S ON DOCUMENTS, THERE HAS NOT BEEN ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT YET.

IT SEEMS LIKE AN ARREST BILTMORE FOR HEADLINES AND ACTUAL PROSECUTION.

PEOPLE SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION TO THESE ISSUES?

IT SEEMS VERY TECHNICAL.

CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE OF WHY YOU THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO THESE KINDS OF SPECIFIC ISSUES AND SPECIFIC PROSECUTIONS AND ALLEGATIONS AND THESE DEVELOPMENTS?

>> I WOULD TELL THE VIEWERS TO NOT UNDERESTIMATE YOUR OWN POWER HERE.

HAVING BEEN ON THE INSET OF GOVERNMENT, I CAN TELL YOU THAT PROTESTS, OUTREACH AND OUTRAGE REALLY MATTER.

IT CHANGES HOW PEOPLE INSIDE OF GOVERNMENT THINK.

IT CHANGES HOW JUDGES THINK.

THE MORE ATTENTION THAT CAN BE BROUGHT TO ATTACKS ON THE CONSTITUTION OR ATTACKS ON THE RULE OF LAW, IT EMPOWERS PEOPLE INSIDE THE GOVERNMENT TO RESIST UNCONSTITUTIONAL OR ILLEGAL ACTIONS AND IT EMPOWERS JUDGES TO STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT.

SEE THE EXACT CONSEQUENCE OF PAYING ATTENTION AND SPEAKING OUT, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT YOU ARE HAVING AN EFFECT.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> A POWERFUL MESSAGE OF HOPE FROM THE LATE POPE FRANCIS.

AS THE POPE MOBILE IS TRANSFORMED INTO A MEDICAL UNIT FOR THE CHILDREN OF GAZA.

THE MOVE WAS ONE OF THE PONTIFF'S FINAL WISHES, AND IN ENVELOPE OF HIS LEGACY SEEKING PEACE IN THE REGION.

MEANWHILE, CARDINALS ARE GATHERING IN ROME FOR THE CONCLAVE, CENTURIES-OLD TRADITION.

THE ELECTION OF THE NEXT POPE BEGINS WEDNESDAY AT THE VATICAN.

WE WILL BE BRINGING THAT TO YOU.

>> THAT IS IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER ON PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.