GEOFF BENNETT: Minnesota is the latest flash# point in a federal crackdown involving ICE,## Border Patrol, and other agencies.

But it's# far from the only place being targeted.

Aggressive tactics have played# out in Chicago, Los Angeles,## New York, Washington, D.C., and now# Maine.

The protests, the clashes,## and the violence have raised urgent# questions about where this all leads.

In a recent piece for The Guardian, Claire# Finkelstein warns that what's unfolding in## Minneapolis closely mirrors a U.S.

civil# war simulation she oversaw in 2024.

Claire Finkelstein is the director# of the Center for Ethics and the## Rule of Law at the University of# Pennsylvania, and she joins us now.

Thank you for being with us.

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN, University of# Pennsylvania: Thanks for having me.

GEOFF BENNETT: And we should say# these simulations you .. weren't designed to predict a second civil# war, but were instead meant to stress-test## the system.

What motivated those exercises?# And what were you most worried about then?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: There were# really two things that motivated us.

And let's remember this was conducted in September# of 2024.

So it was before the presidential## election.

But we were worried.

We were worried# about what had happened on January 6, 2021.

We were also worried in the# wake of the immunity decision,## and what was that going to mean for potentially# a more unfettered Trump second term and whether## or not the rule of law would prevail and about the# tensions, potential tensions between the federal## government and state and local governments,# and what that could mean for the rule of law.

GEOFF BENNETT: When you look at# what's unfolding now in Minneapolis,## what feels uncomfortably# familiar from those simulations?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: Well, one# of the things that happened was,## we saw a spinning out of control.

And# I hope that's not what's happening in## Minneapolis, but a lot of what's been# happening is going in that direction.

We saw a spinning out of control# of the federal government.

We saw## a refusal to abide by court orders.

We saw# the difficulty that courts have in acting in## time and difficulty enforcing their orders.# So we have seen all of that.

And then the## attempt to attack state officials# is something that we also looked at.

GEOFF BENNETT: Why are clashes# between state authority and## federal forces so much more destabilizing# than traditional or conventional unrest?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: Because traditional unrest is## really about the people.

It's# not about government, per se.

And, hopefully -- and this is what we have had# for most of our history -- you have the federal## government and the state governments working# together to try to get control over that unrest,## to de-escalate the situation, and# to work ideally in harmony together,## or at least to have a functional working# relationship and to partner together.

A lot of those partnerships are of long standing,# person-to-person relationships.

That was one of## the things we found in our tabletop exercise,# which is that those personal relationships## can be very effective in de-escalating# situations, sort of backdoor conversations.

But when you have the federal government# and the state government unable to work## together and giving different narratives, it's# profoundly confusing to people.

And, of course,## it will have a tendency to escalate violence, as# well as to really do damage to the rule of law.

GEOFF BENNETT: And you have said# that ICE is acting in ways that## even exceed what was imagined in your# simulations.

What stands out to you?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: We did not have federal# agents or federal troops openly defying## the law, firing on protesters, and,# frankly, killing them in cold blood.

We had imagined federal agents a little more# like what happened in Portland in 2020 or## even Philadelphia that summer, where agents# were going back and forth with protesters,## some of whom were violating the law, and# where federal agents were using harsh tactics,## but not to the point where they were# openly attacking American citizens and## actually quite clearly exceeding# rules for the use of force.

GEOFF BENNETT: And further applying# your insights to this moment,## the Department of Homeland Security,# its officers have fired shots during## enforcement arrests or at people protesting# their operations 16 times since July.

No officer has faced criminal charges# and the administration has not announced## disciplinary proceedings against any# of the officers or the agents involved.## So how should we understand this# moment, two American citizens shot## and killed by masked federal agents,# with no immediate accountability?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: So you said the# right word, which is accountability.

That is key.

Even if there is a deal struck -- and# I'm heartened by the fact that President Trump and## Governor Walz had a productive phone conversation,# but a deal is not enough.

There needs to be## accountability for the illegal actions of federal# agents, at least a full and fair investigation.

And state investigators need to be# in on that.

Beyond that, of course,## state investigators have the right to# conduct -- and prosecutors have the## right to conduct their own prosecution in# this situation.

Now, the federal government## will claim immunity or will claim that the# agents have at least qualified immunity.

But there's a lot to argue there legally.# And I think there's every reason to think## that those agents were going beyond# what they needed to do in order to## carry out their official duties, which# would vitiate the claims of immunity.

GEOFF BENNETT: In your simulation, at# what point does a democracy stop being## governed by law and start being governed by power?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: If courts can't or# won't resolve the conflict between the## federal government and the state, then we# have a serious threat to our democracy.

We rely on courts.

And everybody should# want these disputes to be resolved in a## court of law and should commit themselves,# whether they like the decisions or not,## to abide by court decisions.# When that doesn't happen,## as to some extent happened in our scenario,# then you have got a real threat to democracy.

GEOFF BENNETT: Claire Finkelstein, director# of the Center for Ethics and the Rule of## Law at the University of Pennsylvania,# thank you for your time this evening.

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: Thanks for having me.