>>> WE TURN NOW TO AMERICAN POLITICS WHERE OUR NEXT GUEST WAS DRAWN TO THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT AS A COLLEGE STUDENT.

AFTER INTERNSHIPS AND JOBS THAT CENTERED AROUND RIGHT WING TALKING POINTS, SHE LEFT THAT WORLD BEHIND.

TINA NGUYEN HAS A NEW BOOK "THE MAGA DIARIES."

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "THE MAGA DIARIES, MY SURREAL ADVENTURES INSIDE THE RIGHT WING AND HOW I GOT OUT."

FIRST, HOW DO YOU BECOME A MAGA PERSON?

BECAUSE AS MOST OF US ARE PRONE TO STEREOTYPES, THIS DOESN'T LOOK LIKE YOUR TRADITIONAL HARD CORE TRUMP CONSERVATIVE.

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

JUST LOOK AT ME.

I'M A WOMAN OF COLOR WITH REFUGEE PARENTS WHO GREW UP IN BOSTON?

IT SHOULD MAKE NO SENSE.

BUT FOR ME, MY JOURNEY INTO CONSERVATIVE WORLD AS IT WERE CAME FROM TWO FACTORS, WHICH WAS, ONE, MY PARENTS MAY HAVE BEEN INTELLIGENT AND THEY MAY HAVE SOMEHOW GOT ME TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL AND A SCHOLARSHIP, BUT THEY DID NOT KNOW HOW AMERICAN SOCIETY WORKS AND THEY DID NOT KNOW HOW TO GET JOBS, THEY DID NOT KNOW HOW TO BUILD CONNECTIONS.

IT WAS JUST A TOTALLY FOREIGN SYSTEM FOR THEM.

AND THE SECOND FACTOR WAS THAT I WAS A BIG GEEK ABOUT THE FOUNDING FATHERS.

LIKE YOU GROW UP IN BOSTON, YOU'RE SURROUNDED BY THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR IN EVERY CORNER.

YOU'RE IMBUED WITH THE IDEALS OF THE AMERICAN FOUNDING.

THE MOMENT I COME ACROSS THIS SCHOOL THAT IS, ONE, VERY CAREER ORIENTED AND, TWO, LITERALLY HAS THESE RESEARCH INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE STUDYING THE FOUNDING FATHERS AND INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM AND THE IDEAS OF LIBERTY, YOU'RE JUST KIND OF LIKE, OH, OKAY.

YEAH.

MENT LET'S DO THIS.

AND THEN THERE IS A COMMUNITY THAT YOU GO INTO.

AND THAT WAS MY ENTRANCE INTO THE BROADER CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT, WHICH IS THIS VAST I GUESS LOOSELY CONNECTED NETWORK OF INTEREST GROUPS, ACTIVIST GROUPS, POLITICIANS WHO ALL ARE PART OF THIS CULTURAL -- NOT LIKE CULTURAL CONSERVATISM BUT A CULTURE OF BEING CONSERVATIVE FOR A LIVING.

THE GOAL IS TO GET CONSERVATIVES INTO ALL ASPECTS OF AMERICAN CIVIC LIFE.

THE LAW.

THE ELECTED SYSTEM.

ACTIVISTS ON THE GROUND.

MAYBE PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION, LOBBYISTS, WHAT HAVE YOU.

AND SEE THESE IDEAS INTO LEGISLATION, INTO CULTURE AND THEN WATCH THEM PAY OFF MAYBE DECADES DOWN THE ROAD.

>> NOW IT DOES READ A BIT LIKE A DIARY.

YOU START OUT HOW YOU KIND OF WENT TO THE COLLEGE THAT YOU WENT TO, SORT OF CHASING A BOY THAT WAS A CONSERVATIVE.

HOW DID KIND OF WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED IN COLLEGE TRANSLATE INTO THE FIRST FEW JOBS YOU GOT WRITING FOR THE PUBLICATIONS THAT YOU WERE WRITING, COVERING THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT?

>> I WANTED TO BE A JOURNALIST PRETTY BADLY.

I WAS LOOKING FOR INTERNSHIPS IN THE SUMMER OF 2009, RIGHT?

IN THE HEIGHT OF THE RECESSION.

AND THIS OPPORTUNITY POPS UP IN OUR CONSERVATIVE JOBS EMAIL LIST AT THE INSTITUTE OF HUMANE STUDIES WHERE THEY'RE LOOKING FOR STUDENTS WHO WANT A PAID INTERNSHIP IN JOURNALISM AS LONG AS THEY'RE LIBERTY MINDED, WHICH WAS THE EXACT PHRASE THEY USED.

I APPLIED FOR IT.

I GOT IT.

HERE'S YOUR MONEY.

YOU HAVE TO COME TO THESE SEMINARS WHERE YOU GET TO HANG OUT WITH ALL OF THESE OTHER STUDENTS AND YOU GET TO TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT IS LIKE ANTI-FREE MARKET.

I DON'T KNOW WHY THE MEDIA IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT.

WHEN SEPTEMBER ROLLS AROUND I GET INVITED TO THE OFFICIAL MENTORSHIP PROGRAM.

THE GUY WHO RUNS IT SAID I AM GOING TO BE YOUR MENTOR.

I AM GOING TO GET YOU JOBS, HELP YOU WRITE YOUR RESUME, CONNECT YOU WITH PEOPLE AND AS I LEFT COLLEGE THOUGH I STARTED NOTICING THAT THIS MENTOR WAS CONNECTING ME WITH GROUPS THAT WERE INCREASINGLY LESS FOCUSED ON JOURNALISM AND MORE FOCUSED ON PUTTING OUT NEWS THAT HAD A REALLY INTENSE PARTISAN TILT TO THE POINT WHERE THEY JUST DECONTEXTUALIZED WHAT IT IS THEY WANTED ME TO WRITE FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING A POLITICAL POINT.

>> YOU KNOW, THIS COULD HAVE BEEN A BOOK ABOUT SOMEONE THAT WAS YOUNG GETTING INTO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND FINDING HER CONSERVATIVE ROOTS, BUT WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN I GUESS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF 25 YEARS AGO AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU TALKED TO AND INTERACT WITH IN THE BOOK WHO ARE FROM THAT ERA AND THE MAGA MOVEMENT SPECIFICALLY?

>> THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT DID NOT HAVE AN IMMUNE SYSTEM AGAINST POPULISM, I THINK.

THEY HAD THIS LARGE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT HAS SPAWNED FROM THE MOVEMENT, BUT THEY WERE PRETTY FIRMLY OF THE BELIEF THAT THEY SUPPORTED FREE MARKETS, RELIGIOUS RIGHTS, ANTI-ABORTION BUT THAT THE REPUBLICAN VOTER BASE WANTED THE SAME AS WELL.

AND THEN THE MOMENT THAT DONALD TRUMP COMES IN AND THE BASE IS LIKE ACTUALLY WE WOULD LIKE POPULISM VERY MUCH.

THE MOVEMENT WAS LIKE, ALL RIGHT, DO WE STICK TO OUR GUNS AND TRY TO PROMOTE A BELIEF THAT IS INCREASINGLY UNPOPULAR?

OR DO WE PIVOT TO MEET THESE VOTERS WHERE THEY ARE?

WE PIVOT TRUMP TO -- TRUMP TO WHERE HE IS BECAUSE HE'S THE LEADER OF OUR PARTY AND THE FREE WORLD IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN NOT JUST OUR POWER OR OUR MONEY CYNICALLY BUT THE REASON WE'VE DONE WHAT WE'VE DONE FOR 25 TO 30 YEARS.

ONE OF THE THINGS I KEEP NOTICING IN THE BOOK OVER AND OVER AGAIN WAS THAT PEOPLE WHO LEFT IN RESPONSE TO TRUMPISM WERE IMMEDIATELY JUST APT.

THEY -- LIKE THEIR FRIENDS DISAVOWED THEM.

THEIR COLLEAGUES -- THEIR INSTITUTIONS FIRED THEM.

THEY NO LONGER HAD JOBS AND I WAS LOOKING AT THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT FOR A WHILE AND I WAS LIKE, THIS DOESN'T REALLY HAPPEN OVER HERE.

THAT'S SO WEIRD.

>> SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT SORT OF TRUMP'S FORCE, SINGULARLY, THAT WAS ABLE TO GALL VANNIZE NOT JUST DISAFFECTED VOTERS IN THE RUST BELT BUT YOUNG CONSERVATIVES AS WELL?

I MEAN, YOU TALK ABOUT THE PLACES THAT WERE LOOKING FOR A LEADER LIKE HIM.

>> COLLEGE CONSERVATISM IS ALWAYS PREDICATED ON THE BELIEF THAT THERE IS LIBERAL INSTITUTIONS ON CAMPUS, LIBERAL ACADEMIA TRYING TO PUSH A CERTAIN VIEW OF THE WORLD DOWN YOUR THROAT AND YOU NEED TO RESIST IT AGAINST THAT INDOCTRINATION, AND THAT'S ONLY INCREASED IN SUBSEQUENT YEARS, ESPECIALLY DUE TO THE RISE IN ONLINE MEDIA, BEING ABLE TO LIKE OUT YOU IF YOU STEP OUTSIDE THE LINE OF WHAT IS CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE LOUD PROTESTS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, LIKE ISRAEL VERSUS GAZA, THE REALLY DEEP TENSION THAT COLLEGE STUDENTS FACE IS IF I SAY SOMETHING OUT LOUD, WILL I BE CANCELED AND OSTRACIZED?

WILL PEOPLE SORT OF LITERALLY THROW EGGS AT MY FACE WHENEVER THEY SEE ME?

JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT APPROACHING YOUR VIEWS AND ROLLING AROUND WITHOUT A MAGA HAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU WON'T PULL THE LEVER FOR TRUMP.

>> RIGHT NOW IN EVERY POLITICAL CONVERSATION OR DEBATE WHAT YOU NOTICE VERY QUICKLY IS THAT THE RIGHT IS MUCH BETTER THAN THE LEFT WHEN IT COMES TO MESSAGING MARCHING ORDERS, SINGING FROM THE SAME HYMNAL OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT.

CAN YOU DIAGRAM HOW THAT WORKS?

>> IT'S PURELY REACTIONARY.

CONSERVATISM AS JUST A GENERAL AMERICAN PHILOSOPHY AND IDEA, ONE OF THE TEXTS THAT THEY ALWAYS DRAW FROM IS EDMUND BURKE, PHILOSOPHER FROM THE LATE 1800s.

MOST OF HIS WRITING FOCUSED ON THE CONCEPT THAT SOCIETY IF IT MOVES FORWARD TOO QUICKLY WILL LEAD TO RUIN, BUT FAST FORWARD TO NOW.

THE IDEA THAT THEY HAVE MARCHING ORDERS FROM ONE PERSON I THINK IS FALSE.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT THERE'S A DEEP SEEDED FEAR OF WHAT CHANGE LOOKS LIKE AND IT'S AUTOMATICALLY VERY EASY, IF NOT INSTINCTUAL, TO BE LIKE, NO, WE DON'T LIKE THAT.

NO, THIS IS BAD.

NO, WE WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO STOP THAT.

THAT'S NOT HARD TO COORDINATE.

THAT'S INCREDIBLY EASY TO JUST GET ON THE SAME PAGE.

>> HOW DOES THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT OR MAGA MOVEMENT IN AMERICA FIND THEMSELVES IN ANY WAY VICTIMS WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF POWER THAT EXISTS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE SUPREME COURT OR LOTS OF OTHER AVENUES OF SOCIETY WHERE IT'S AT BEST 50/50?

>> LOOK, JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE FORMAL POWER DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THEY HAVE ABSOLUTE POWER.

THE SUPREME COURT, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE CONTROL OVER THE SUPREME COURT, DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THEY KNOW EXACTLY HOW THESE JUSTICES ARE GOING TO BE VOTING.

A BUNCH OF THE RIGHT WING JUDGES ARE NOT NECESSARILY CONSERVATIVE OR MAGA JUSTICES.

CLARENCE THOMAS, I THINK, IS SORT OF HIS OWN WEIRD LITTLE THING.

ROBERTS IS KIND OF INDEPENDENT FROM ALL OF THAT.

THE -- AND THEN OF COURSE THERE'S THE EXISTENCE OF THE LIBERAL JUDGES.

SO THEY HAVE SEATS.

THEY DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE CONTROL.

ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT RECENTLY AT PUCK IS THE IDEA THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS BEING BUILT AND LIKE WAITING SO THEY CAN SPECIFICALLY GO IN ON DAY ONE AND KNOCK OUT EVERYONE WHO HAD OPPOSED THE TRUMP AGENDA DURING THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION PURGING, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, THE DEEP STATE THAT HAD WORKED TO EITHER STOP WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DO, OR ROLL IT BACK, OR WHATEVER STOOD IN THE WAY.

>> WHEN DID YOU FEEL LIKE YOU WERE PERHAPS OUT OF STEP WITH THE MOVEMENT OR WHEN DID YOU FIND YOUR BELIEVES CHANGING?

>> THE COVENANT THAT THEY BROKE WITH ME WAS THAT THEY SAID I COULD BE A JOURNALIST AND THEN WHEN I TRIED TO BE A JOURNALIST THEY WERE LIKE, NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT BECAUSE WE NEED TO ATTACK THE DEMOCRATS.

AND THAT WAS JUST SUCH A VIOLATION FOR ME PERSONALLY.

I STILL REALLY LIKE THE FOUNDING FATHERS.

I STILL BELIEVE IN THE AMERICAN IDEAL.

I WORRY THAT WE'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE IT BECAUSE WE'RE HUMANS, BUT THE IDEA THAT THIS INSTITUTION WAS ASKING ME TO DELIBERATELY LIKE DECONTEXTUALIZE THE TRUTH OR TAKE AN ANGLE OR IN SOME CASES OUTRIGHT LIE UNDER THE GUISE OF BEING A JOURNALIST WAS JUST LIKE I CAN'T DO THIS, I JUST CANNOT.

THERE WAS ONE POINT IN DECEMBER 2011, AND I WRITE ABOUT THIS, THAT I'M ON MY SECOND JOB INTERVIEW AND THERE'S THIS GROUP CALLED THE FRANKLIN INSTITUTE LOOKING FOR A STRINGER IN MADISON, WISCONSIN.

THAT'S COOL.

I'D LOVE TO REPORT OUT OF WISCONSIN.

THEN THEY STARTED ASKING ME TO SPECIFICALLY MUCK RAKE ON TEACHERS' UNIONS.

THIS IS AROUND THE TIME THAT SCOTT WALKER AND THE TEACHERS' UNIONS ARE HAVING A MASSIVE BATTLE.

I'M LIKE, WAIT.

WAIT A SECOND.

NO.

NO.

THIS IS BAD.

I CAN'T DO THIS.

>> THE IRONY IS IS THAT THESE ARE SOME OF THE VERY CRITIQUES THAT CONSERVATIVES HURL AGAINST WHAT THEY RECEIVE AS LIBERAL MEDIA BIAS, THAT REPORTERS AUTOMATICALLY HAVE AN AXE TO GRIND, THEY'RE OUT TO MUCK RAKE OR DECONTEXTUALIZE THE TRUTH.

>> I THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE, THIS IS JUST FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, LIKE GROWING UP WITH A SPECIFIC VIEW OF THE WORLD, GOING THROUGH SPECIFIC JOURNALISTIC INSTITUTIONS IN ORDER TO GET CREDENTIALED, SLIP THROUGH THE DOOR AND BECOME A "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER, FOR INSTANCE, THAN THERE IS BEING PART OF A FORMAL WELL-FUNDED MOVEMENT THAT IS MEANT TO SPECIFICALLY INSERT CONSERVATIVE IDEAS INTO THE MEDIA.

IN THIS -- IN MY CASE UNDER THE GUISE OF BEING A JOURNALIST.

LIKE I THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING CONSERVATIVE MEDIA REPORTERS WHOLE SEPARATE ISSUE IN AND OF ITSELF BUT THEN BEING ASKED TO TWIST THE TRUTH WHILE BEING A JOURNALIST.

>> YOU WERE WRITING AT POLITICO.

I WANT TO READ THE HEADLINE FOR YOUR PIECE.

IT SAID, MAGA LEADERS CALL FOR THE TROOPS TO KEEP TRUMP IN OFFICE.

A GROWING CALL TO INVOKE THE INSURRECTION ACT SHOWS HOW FAR EDGED MAGA IDEOLOGY HAS BECOME IN THE WAKE OF TRUMP'S ELECTION LOSS.

WHAT WERE YOUR EDITORS THINKING AFTER JANUARY 6th?

>> JANUARY 6th WAS JUST A HARD THING FOR PEOPLE TO WRAP THEIR HEADS AROUND, BUT I HAD BEEN PITCHING SO OFTEN THE STORIES OF HERE ARE THESE MAGA PEOPLE COMING INTO WASHINGTON.

THEY ARE WILLING TO USE VIOLENCE.

THEY HAVE VIOLENT IDEOLOGY IN THEIR BACK POCKET.

THEY TRULY BELIEVE IF THE GOVERNMENT IS BEING TAKEN OVER THEY HAVE THE RIGHT AS SOVEREIGN CITIZENS TO TAKE UP ARMS, AND I THINK OVER TIME THERE'S THIS REALLY WEIRD TENSION BETWEEN THEM BEING LIKE, OKAY, YOU WERE RIGHT, BUT ALSO EDITORS HAVING THIS INABILITY TO RECOGNIZE, WAIT, NO, WHAT YOU'RE REPORTING ON IS STILL TRUE.

IT'S STILL SO FAR OUTSIDE OF WHAT WE BELIEVE TO BE TRUE THAT WE JUST CAN'T ACCEPT IT.

THE THAT PIECE I WROTE WAS SORT OF THE PRECURSOR TO THE PIECE I PITCHED FOR JANUARY 6th WHICH WAS I WANT TO REPORT ON PEOPLE WHO HAVE GONE TO THE CAPITOL TO TRY TO HARASS LAWMAKERS AS THEY ENTER THE BUILDING, AND WHEN I GOT THERE THIS WASN'T SO MUCH A CROWD THAT REALLY WAS LIKE WHIPPED UP INTO A FRENZY SO MUCH AS IT WAS A CROWD THAT DID TRULY BELIEVE THAT THE CAPITOL BELONGED TO THEM AND THAT THEY SHOULD BE LET THROUGH THE BARRIERS IN ORDER TO TELL THE LAWMAKERS TO THEIR FACE WHAT TO DO.

A LITTLE BIT NERVE RACKING.

A LITTLE BIT SCARY, BUT I WAS LIKE, ALL RIGHT, THIS MAKES SENSE.

THEN I MET A PROUD BOY FOR THE FIRST TIME AND HE JUST KIND OF STARTED HINTING, WE'VE GOT A PLAN.

WE'VE GOT A TOTALLY COOL PLAN.

>> DO YOU SEE ANY BLIND SPOTS HEADING INTO 2024 SIMILAR TO THE BLIND SPOTS YOU DISCUSS IN THE BOOK ABOUT MAYBE HOW THE PRESS DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS HAPPENING WITH THE TRUMP MOVEMENT THE FIRST TIME AROUND?

ARE THERE THINGS THAT WE'RE STILL NOT GETTING?

>> I THINK IT SEEMS TO BE HARD FOR PEOPLE TO WRAP THEIR HEADS AROUND THE IDEA THAT MINORITIES COULD BE PRO TRUMP.

VIETNAMESE AMERICANS ARE EXTREMELY PRO TRUMP.

I THINK A MAJORITY OF THEM DO VOTE FOR TRUMP, BUT THE GROWTH IN HISPANIC VOTERS GOING FOR TRUMP, ASIAN-AMERICANS, POSSIBLY MORE BLACK VOTERS THIS TIME AROUND TO A SURPRISING DEGREE.

AND IT DOES COME FROM A PLACE WHERE THEY JUST CANNOT SIMPLY ACCEPT THAT RACISM DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN OH, I'M LOOKING AT THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN AND YOUR BACKGROUND, YOU DON'T BELONG HERE, WHATEVER.

IT IS THE IDEA THAT SOMEONE'S PUTTING THEIR SCALE ON THE THUMB OF WHO GETS POWER, WHO GETS JOBS, WHO GETS ACCESS AND TILTING IT TOWARDS UNDER SERVED, UNDESERVING MINORITIES.

IF YOU WERE TO GO TO A WORKING CLASS, MIDDLE CLASS -- CAN I BE UPPER MIDDLE CLASS HOUSEHOLD?

OF A NON-WHITE AMERICAN, MAYBE LIKE SOCIALISM REALLY SCARY.

A LOT OF US ESCAPED SOCIALIST COUNTRIES AND OUR ENTIRE LIVELIHOODS AND LIVES WERE DESTROYED IN THE NAME OF SOCIALISM.

PEOPLE ARE COMING ACROSS THE BORDER.

WE WENT AROUND THIS THE PROPER WAY.

HOW DARE BIDEN BRING THEM IN AND WE HAD TO JUMP THROUGH HOOPS IN ORDER TO PROVE WE WERE GOOD AMERICAN CITIZENS.

THEY LOVE BEING IN AMERICA.

THE IDEA THAT LIKE SOMEONE COULD TAKE AWAY THAT STABILITY FOR THEM IS LIKE DEEPLY TRAUMATIZING.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE MAGA DIARIES, MY SURREAL ADVENTURES INSIDE THE RIGHT WING AND HOW I GOT OUT."

TINA NGUYEN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.