GEOFF BENNETT: The Trump administration's hard-line immigration policies have sparked protests across the country and have had a profound impact on many Latino communities.

We're going to hear now from two pastors on the front lines offering support and helping families navigate the fear and practical challenges that come with immigration enforcement.

First, we're joined by the Reverend Carlos Malave, president of the Latino Christian National Network, representing evangelical and mainline leaders across the country.

Thanks for being here.

We appreciate it.

REV.

CARLOS MALAVE, President, Latino Christian National Network: My pleasure.

Thank you for the opportunity.

GEOFF BENNETT: So what concerns you the most about the way the ICE deportation raids are being carried out?

REV.

CARLOS MALAVE: I would say that we as a nation and especially the Latino community in the U.S. is at a crossroads at this at this moment.

Our people are systematically being repressed.

And the level of fear that our community is experiencing is at levels that we have never experienced as a community in this country.

At least we never expected that we will be here in this moment.

But the suffering of our people is real.

And we didn't have to come to this point.

So we are accompanying our people as spiritual leaders in this crossroad moments in our nation.

GEOFF BENNETT: When you say this isn't something that you ever expected, Donald Trump ran on greater border enforcement, mass deportations.

Those were the two biggest pledges he made as a candidate.

In fact, at the Republican National Convention, there was a sea of people holding signs that said "Mass Deportation Now."

I mean, doesn't his aggressive immigration approach align with what the public was told to expect in the event that he won?

REV.

CARLOS MALAVE: In a sense, that's true.

But there are nuances to that.

And there was a rhetoric that was used, and it's even still being attempted to be used, the rhetoric that what the administration wanted to do, and the president, was to deport criminals.

And so, based on that, we can ask, what does the president and administration consider criminals?

Because what we see every day through social media, in our communities and even through the regular media is that families, children, workers, people who are normal people who've been a blessing to our community are being repressed and harassed and persecuted.

GEOFF BENNETT: Your organization filed a lawsuit to stop ICE from targeting places like churches and schools.

A federal judge refused to block that new policy.

What effect has that had on the community?

REV.

CARLOS MALAVE: The community, soon after the inauguration, when we began to hear all this rhetoric and the intentions of the administration, our church members enter into actually a real deep fear mode.

And that began to affect them to the fact that they -- many, many thousands just stopped going to churches, not only going to churches, but going to -- even to hospitals, to doctor's visits, sometimes even to the market.

But then that subsided a little bit for a while, for a few months.

But now, when we see the increment of this vicious acts of the administration, now real people are really living in real deep fear.

GEOFF BENNETT: When you speak of fear, do you think that's deliberate on the part of the Trump administration, creating fear as part of this strategy for immigration enforcement and deterrence?

REV.

CARLOS MALAVE: We have no doubt.

At least those leaders that work with us have no doubt that this is a fear campaign, that it's intentional to confuse our people.

And it's intentional.

The very sad part of this is that our people are being persecuted and inflicted fear over just for the sake of being Latinos.

We strongly believe that there is a strong component of racial prejudice on this.

And we have seen this again, again and again.

GEOFF BENNETT: The Reverend Carlos Malave, president of the Latino Christian National Network, thank you for joining us.

REV.

CARLOS MALAVE: Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT: And for another perspective on this, the Reverend Sam Rodriguez is back with us.

He's president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference and senior pastor of the New Season Church in Sacramento, California.

He's also an adviser to the White House on faith issues.

It's good to have you back.

Thanks for being here.

REV.

SAM RODRIGUEZ, President, National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference: Thank you for having me.

GEOFF BENNETT: So when you and I spoke back in November, just after Election Day, about Trump immigration policies, you said you had assurances from the Trump team that their focus would be on deporting undocumented immigrants with criminal records.

Here's what you said at the time.

REV.

SAM RODRIGUEZ: Now, I could tell you, right here to your audience, I would be the first one vociferously protesting if the administration comes after families that have been here 20, 25, 30 years, 15 years, God-fearing, hardworking, not living off government subsidies whose children were born here.

GEOFF BENNETT: So did you did you protest when ICE started arresting and deporting long-settled families and farmwork?

REV.

SAM RODRIGUEZ: I can't necessarily express how I protested, but I can say with clear conviction and with a love to God and integrity in my children, I can go to sleep at night knowing that I was faithful to my word.

I was given assurances.

And I commend and applaud President Trump for pivoting, for making a declarative statement as it pertains to please target the criminal element and, his wording, not mine, leave the good people who are hardworking,and he was referencing farmworkers in California, but others likewise, leave them alone.

Let's find a solution out there, but just target the criminal element.

I agree with President Trump's clear articulation that the priority should be exclusively those involved in nefarious activities.

GEOFF BENNETT: President Obama deported far more undocumented immigrants than President Trump has, even earned the nickname deporter in chief, but he focused on recent arrivals and undocumented immigrants with criminal records.

And you were an adviser to President -- former President Obama at the time.

So how do you compare with what happened then to what you're seeing now, especially with these high-profile raids that critics say are designed to provoke and escalate and instill fear?

REV.

SAM RODRIGUEZ: These high-profile raids may very well be the outcome of sanctuary states and sanctuary laws.

Let me put it in perspective.

If sanctuary states, cities and laws would not exist, Department of Homeland Security, ICE would have access to prisons and jails and to information and cooperation from local law enforcement.

When that is no longer present, they have to go with this large net, this incredible net.

Now, that was explained to me specifically and directly, as I asked the same identical question.

And I was told explicitly, the only reason this is happening, the raids are directly proportional to sanctuary laws.

If you're not cooperating, we're going to have the cast a large net.

And in that large net unfortunately may be -- and I'm quoting here, I air quote here for purpose -- innocent bystanders, meaning those that came in here undocumented, but not have not -- have not been engaged in nefarious activities, and may be family members to the criminal elements being picked up.

GEOFF BENNETT: When you say that you spoke up, you expressed your concerns to the Trump administration, what was the response that you received?

REV.

SAM RODRIGUEZ: Again, for ethical purposes and for purposes of preserving my relational dynamic with the current administration, I cannot share the specifics of how, when, where, who.

What I can tell you is that I did express my angst and my consternation, because I'm hearing it from pastors.

I really am.

I'm hearing it from pastors.

There's great concern.

And we're talking about pro-Trump pastors, conservative Christian pastors, the 64 percent that supported his reelection in 2024.

And there's great anxiety out there because their parishioners are living in fear.

So, really, if Homeland Security would execute President Trump's instructions, the fear would go away and we would work on a congressional solution.

GEOFF BENNETT: I will put to you the same question I put to Pastor Malave.

I mean, do you think the fear is by design?

REV.

SAM RODRIGUEZ: Is the fear by design?

Is the fear by design?

I don't deny the fact that there may be a strategy to prompt people to self-deport.

And in order to prompt people to self-deport, there may be an element of fear or fearmongering that may be part of the algorithm currently in place.

And I'm not here to justify President Trump's policy.

I'm here to tell you firsthand in conversations that's not President Trump's directive.

It isn't.

It may be others', but it's not his.

GEOFF BENNETT: He's still president, no?

REV.

SAM RODRIGUEZ: But -- he is president, but, right now, I'm going to be honest.

There are a couple -- and this is important, of course, to all of us, but Israel, Iran, the U.S. engagement, there are some pretty important things happening simultaneously right now, where this issue may not be front and center as a priority item list as of today.

But there are others who are executing, and, as you mentioned previously, there seems to be a disconnect between his directive and the execution of policies currently.

So I do hope they place themselves in perfect alignment with the president's petition, for lack of a better term.

GEOFF BENNETT: The Reverend Sam Rodriguez, senior pastor of the New Season Church in Sacramento, California, thanks again for your time this evening.

REV.

SAM RODRIGUEZ: Thank you for having me.