>> Ingrid Newkirk: WE HAVE SEEN WHO ANIMALS ARE, WE HAVE LEARNED ABOUT THEIR AMAZING ABILITIES, THEIR TALENTS AND INTELLIGENCE.

THEY DESERVE NOT TO BE BULLIED, NOT TO BE DOMINATED AND NOT TO BE STOLEN FROM, INCLUDING HAVING THEIR LIVES TAKEN FROM THEM.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY."

THIS WEEK WE CONTINUE OUR WOMEN THOUGHT LEADERS SERIES WITH INGRID NEWKIRK, THE PRESIDENT AND ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF PETA, THE WORLD'S LARGEST ANIMAL RIGHTS ORGANIZATION.

SHE IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF SEVERAL WORKS, THE LATEST, "ANIMAL KIND."

REMARKABLE DISCOVERIES ABOUT ANIMALS AND THE REMARKABLE WAYS WE CAN BE KIND TO THEM."

WELCOME, INGRID.

GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

WE LAST MET 10 OR 11 OR 15 YEARS AGO, SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHEN WE WERE BOTH TODDLERS.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: THE WORLD WAS YOUNG, YES.

[LAUGHTER] >> Bonnie: SO I'LL ASK YOU ABOUT ANIMAL KIND IN A MOMENT.

I WANT TO FIRST SAY YOU HAVE COMPLETELY REVOLUTIONIZED THE ANIMAL-RIGHTS MOVEMENT, ATTITUDE IN AMERICA.

IT'S AMAZING WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.

JUST TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN WE STILL HAVE, JUST LIKE WITH WOMEN'S RIGHTS OR PEOPLE OF COLOR RIGHTS, WE STILL HAVE A LONG, LONG, LONG WAY TO GO BUT TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1980 WHEN YOU COFOUNDED PETA AND NOW IN TERMS OF AMERICANS' ATTITUDES TOWARDS ANIMALS.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: WELL, AS YOU SAY, MILES TO GO BEFORE WE SLEEP, WHICH I THINK EVERYONE IN EVERY SOCIAL MOVEMENT AGREES WITH.

BUT IT'S DAY AND NIGHT, BECAUSE BACK THEN WHEN PETER STARTED, WE WERE MOCKED.

PEOPLE STILL HAVE A LAUGH, BUT THAT'S OKAY, ABOUT SOME ISSUES BECAUSE WE ARE FOREVER PUSHING THE ENVELOPE.

ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND ONE CRUELTY, IT'S TIME TO EMBRACE THE IDEA OF GETTING RID OF ANOTHER.

SO BACK THEN, IF YOU DID NOT WANT COWS' MILK FOR EXAMPLE AND YOU HAD I'M SURE WHAT JUAN KINCAID NEXT ON THE OSCARS TALKED ABOUT, HOW WE VALUE MOTHER LOVE, YET WE CASUALLY SEPARATE THE MOTHER COW FROM HER BELOVED CALF SO WE CAN PUT A PIECE OF CHEESE ON THE PIZZA.

IF YOU WANTED SOMETHING ELSE, YOU CANNOT FIND IT.

YOU HAD TO MAYBE GET SOME SOY POWDER AND MIX IT BY HAND.

NOW YOU GO TO THE SUPERMARKET AND SPEND 10 MINUTES LOOKING AT THE SHELF AND THINKING, DO I WANT THE MACADAMIA, THE ALMONDS?

SO FOR HIS DAD, IT'S GONE.

THAT'S OUR SLOGAN.

NO DESIGNER OF ANY NOTE DESIGNS FOR ANYMORE.

>> Bonnie: BUT THEY DO STILL SELL IT.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: THEY DO b ¦¦ >> Bonnie: I WILL NOT PATRONIZE DESIGNERS OR STORES WHO SELL IT.

YOU ARE RIGHT, I MEAN, WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO GET SHOES THAT LOOK LIKE LEATHER BUT THAT ARE NOT LEATHER AND STUFF THAT LOOKS AND TASTES LIKE MEAT AND DOES NOT MEAT IS JUST UNBELIEVABLE.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: YOU MAY NOT REALIZE THAT YOU ARE GETTING APPLE LEATHER OR PINEAPPLE LEATHER OR CACTUS LEATHER.

>> Bonnie: MUSHROOM LEATHER.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: MUSHROOM LEATHER.

THEY ARE ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT DON'T COME FROM KILLING ANIMALS.

AND I THINK AS WE'VE GOT FURTHER AND FURTHER AWAY FROM BEING STONE AGE PEOPLE, WE DON'T LIVE IN CAVES, WE DON'T NEED ANIMAL HIDES AND SKINS AND FOR ANYMORE .

WE'VE ALSO, THANKS TO THE INTERNET IN GREAT PART, WE HAVE SEEN WHO ANIMALS ARE, WE'VE LEARNED ABOUT THEIR AMAZING ABILITIES, THEIR TALENTS, THEIR INTELLIGENCE, THEIR EMOTIONAL LIVES.

THAT'S WILL GET US UP TO THE FACT THAT WE SHOULD LEAVE THEM IN PEACE , WE SHOULD RESPECT THEM.

LIKE ANY OTHER LIVING BEING, THEY DESERVE NOT TO BE BULLIED, NOT TO BE DOMINATED, NOT TO BE STOLEN FROM INCLUDING HAVING THEIR LIVES TAKEN FROM THEM.

THE GUCCI, GALLIANO, DONATELLO OVER SUCH VERSACE, NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE USE IS FOR ANYMORE.

AND WE HAVE MOVED ON TO SAY DON'T USE ANGORA BECAUSE WE HAVE SHOWN THE VIDEOTAPES OF THOSE GOATS BEING b ÃÃRABBITS, EXCUSE ME, BEING LIFE PLUCKED, THEY ARE TAKEN OUT OF THEM.

NOW STORES ARE SAYING, ALL RIGHT, WE WON'T SELL THAT EITHER.

WE HAVE MOVED ON TO SAY NOTHING TAKEN FROM AN ANIMAL: WOOL, PEOPLE SAY IS IN IT A HAIRCUT?

WE SAY NO, LOOK AT THE VIDEOTAPES WE HAVE SHOT AND IS SHARED AROUND THE WORLD.

YOU WILL SEE THOSE MEN , THEY SMASH THOSE GENTLE SHEEP IN THE FACE WITH THE CLIPPERS, STAND ON THEIR NECKS.

DON'T BUY IT.

JUST STAY AWAY.

WE ARE FABULOUS FIBERS, WONDERFUL THINGS TO EAT AND WEAR.

YOU NAME IT, THERE IS SOMETHING THEY CAN FOR EVERYTHING YOU LIKE, HAVE GREW UP LIKING.

>> Bonnie: SO I READ SOMEWHERE THAT SOMETHING LIKE 5 PERCENT OF AMERICANS ARE NOW VEGAN AND VEGETARIAN, WHICH IS AT LEAST FIVE IF NOT 10 TIMES WHAT IT WAS WHEN YOU GOT STARTED.

HOW DO YOU PUSH IT TO 90 PERCENT OR 100 PERCENT?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: IT'S GOING.

I THINK YOU CAN GO TO DUNKIN' DONUTS, YOU CAN GO TO CARL'S JR., ALL THESE PLACES, WHOLE FOODS, ANY SUPERMARKET IN FACT, TARGET, AND DEFINE TASTE ALIKES.

ELECTRICAL THEM TASTE LIKES BECAUSE PEOPLE, IF THEY DON'T KNOW THEY ARE GETTING A VEGAN BURGER, NOW THERE IS QUALITY AND IS JUST EXACTLY THE SAME.

BEYOND BURGER IS EVERYWHERE.

>> BEYOND ME IS AN UP-AND-COMING COMPANY I WAS TOLD BY SOMEONE FROM FARM SANCTUARY A COUPLE WEEKS AGO THAT ONE OF THOSE COMPANIES THAT MAKES LAP MEAT OR PLANT-BASED MEAT IS COMING OUT WITH SOMETHING THAT TASTES LIKE PORK.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: OH, YES.

PORK, FISH, CHICKEN.

WE HAD YEARS AGO A CONTEST.

WE SAID WE WOULD GIVE $1 MILLION TO THE FIRST PERSON WHO CAN COME UP WITH LAB GROWN CHICKEN.

WHICH WAS $1 MILLION BECAUSE A MILLION TICKETS AN HOUR ARE STILL KILLED IN THE UNITED STATES ALONE.

IF YOU GET TO KNOW CHICKENS, AND PEOPLE SAY DON'T TELL ME THIS, BUT I HAVE TAKEN IN FOSTER CHICKENS FROM THE HUMANE SOCIETY.

EACH ONE HAS A PERSONALITY.

SOME FLIRT b ¦¦ >> Bonnie: THEY LOVE TO SNUGGLE.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: OH, THEY LOVE TO SNUGGLE!

THEY WOULD MAKE LITTLE NOISES THE WAY YOUR CATS MAKE NOISES.

THEY ARE INTERESTED IN THINGS.

>> Bonnie: PEOPLE WILL THINK I'M CRAZY WHEN I TELL YOU THIS, BUT I WAS RECENTLY IN-0, CHINA.

I THINK IT WAS LAOS.

CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS CAMBODIA OR LAOS.

WE WENT TO AN ACTUAL EX-PAT VIETNAMESE BOAT PEOPLE WHO LIVED ON TOLD ME SOUTH LAKE WHICH IS THE LARGEST FRESHWATER LAKE IN ASIA.

MY HUSBAND AND I WERE THERE TO BIRD WATCH.

THEY WERE BREEDING ALLIGATORS.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: AND DID NOT KNOW NOT REALIZE THIS, BUT IT WENT OVER AND THEY HAD THEM IN PLASTIC TUBS.

I WENT OVER TO GIVE VIDEO OF IT.

WHEN YOU PUT YOUR FINGER CLOSE TO THE NET THAT WAS COVERING THE TUB, THE LITTLE ALLIGATORS FIGURED THEY WERE BEING FED BECAUSE THAT'S USUALLY WHAT THEY SEE WHEN THEY SAY A HUMAN ANIMAL.

THEY MAKE THIS INCREDIBLE, ADORABLE NOISE.

PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THEY HAVE BRAINS, THEY THINK.

THEY ARE NOT JUST THESE THINGS THAT b ÃÃYOU KNOW, THEY SCAN THEM ALIVE IN ASIA.

THEY DON'T CARE.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: WELL, WE'VE BEEN TO ZIMBABWE, EVEN IN TEXAS WHERE ALLIGATORS ARE RAISED IN THE STINKING, DANK PITS IN THEIR OWN WASTE.WHAT THEY DO TO KILL THEM IS USUALLY WHEN THEY ARE TOTALLY CONSCIOUS.

WHO CARES IF YOU LIKE ALLIGATORS OR YOU DON'T REALLY LIKE CROCODILES OR YOU DON'T?

THEY ARE LIVING, BREATHING, THINKING, FEELING INDIVIDUALS.

THEY STICK A METAL ROD DOWN THEIR SPINES AND THAT'S HOW THEY KILL THEM.

IN OUR VIDEOS, YOU CAN SEE THEM STRUGGLE.

A CROCODILE OR ALLIGATOR BAG MIGHT GO FOR $30,000, AND THAT IS BEYOND BELIEF TO ME THAT SOMEONE WOULD WANT THAT STINKING , CRUELLY KILLED ANIMAL TO BE MADE INTO b ¦¦ >> Bonnie: THEY DON'T KNOW.

IS IT THAT THEY DON'T KNOW OR DON'T CARE?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: SOME DON'T KNOW, SOME DON'T CARE BECAUSE THERE IS A BIAS.THERS, THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE SUPREMACIST ATTITUDE, AND IT RUNS THROUGH EVERY MOVEMENT.

IF YOU HAVE b ÃÃYOU DON'T RELATE TO OTHERS, THEY ARE NIGHT LIKE YOU IN A WAY THAT MAKES YOU SYMPATHETIC OR EMPATHETIC TO THEM, AND SO YOU JUST DISREGARD THEIR INTERESTS.

YOU LOOK DOWN YOUR NOSE AT THEM.

WITH ANIMAL RIGHTS, THERE IS A PRINCIPLE, AND IT'S THE SAME ON THE GOES THROUGH EVERY WOMEN'S MOVEMENT, ANYTHING, IS THAT OTHERS ARE JUST LIKE YOU ONLY A BIT DIFFERENT.

THERE IS NO REASON FOR YOU TO THINK OF YOURSELF AS BETTER OR TO JUST BE MEAN TO THEM.

BE RESPECTFUL OF EVERYBODY, EVERY LIVING BEING.

>> Bonnie: LET'S GET TO YOUR BOOK, "ANIMAL KIND".

I JUST KEEP SEEING RESEARCH SHOWING THAT, YOU KNOW, DOGS HAVE THE VOCABULARY OF A THREE-YEAR-OLD, PIGS HAVE THE VOCABULARY OF A FIVE-YEAR-OLD.

YOU KNOW, PARENTS ARE REALLY UNDERSTANDING OF WORDS WHEN THEY TALK TO YOU, ETC., ETC.

TELL ME ABOUT WHAT'S IN THE BOOK.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: WELL, I LEARNED SO MUCH.

I COLLECT INFORMATION ABOUT ANIMALS.

I WAS QUITE SURPRISED AT ALL THE THINGS I LEARNED FROM ELEPHANTS TO MICE, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE DESERT MOUSE WILL ROLL A ROCK IN FRONT OF HER BOROUGH EVERY NIGHT TO CATCH THE WATER SO SHE CAN DRINK IN THE MORNING.

AND ELEPHANT WILL USE HIS TRUNK ABOVE THE WATER LIKE A SNORKEL SO HE CAN ENJOY SWIMMING, AND THEY WILL SWIM MAYBE 30 MILES FOR THE PURE JOY OF IT.

AND DOGS OF COURSE HAVE SUCH AN INCREDIBLE NOSE THAT THEY CAN SMELL A THUMB DRIVE THAT'S HIDDEN IN A METAL BOX IN A METAL CABINET, AND THEY ARE BEING USED NOW, NOT ONLY TO DETECT CANCEROUS TUMORS WITH A HIGHER SUCCESS RATE THAN ANY HUMAN DOCTOR, BUT AGAINST CHILD PORNOGRAPHY.

LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS ARE USING THEM TO SNIFF OUT THOSE VIDEOS THAT ARE HIDDEN.

BUT I LEARNED ABOUT HORSES' FACIAL EXPRESSIONS, ABOUT HOW SQUIDS WILL SEND A MESSAGE ON ONE SIDE OF THEIR BODY, MAYBE TRYING TO COURT A FEMALE SQUID OVER THERE AND ANOTHER COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MESSAGE ON THE OTHER SIDE SAYING, "STAY AWAY," TO SOME RIVAL.

IT IS EVERYTHING YOU'VE LEARNED THAT'S SO FASCINATING ABOUT THEIR COMMUNICATION ABILITIES, HOW FAR THEY CAN GO FLYING 7000 MILES JUST NAVIGATING BY LOW-FREQUENCY RADIO WAVES.

THEY DON'T HAVE A GPS, THEY DON'T HAVE A MAP.

YET THEY CAN GO TO THE SAME SPOT AND SAME VILLAGE IN THE SAME PLACE AROUND THE WORLD WITH JUST READING THE POSITION OF THE STARS, THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> Bonnie: AMAZING.

NOW, YOU ARE IN 80 COUNTRIES.

ARE WE b ÃÃA LOT OF LEADERS OF THE ANIMAL-RIGHTS MOVEMENT ARE BRITISH.

FIRST OF ALL, WHY IS THAT?

ARE BRITS AHEAD OF THE UNITED STATES?

I KNOW FOR EXAMPLE FOX HUNTING IS NOW FOX CHASING, FOR EXAMPLE, IN BRITAIN, BUT THERE IS STILL ACTUAL FOXHOUNDS ALL OVER THE PLACE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: WE MIGHT HAVE ALL JUST BEEN THROWN OUT OF BRITAIN FOR SOME REASON LAUGHTER] >> Ingrid Newkirk: BUT YOU DO FIND A LOT OF THAT.

I THINK HAVING A SMALL LANDMASS LIKE AN ISLAND NATION, IT'S MUCH EASIER TO AFFECT CHANGE.

THE UNITED STATES IS LIKE 50 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

THE CULTURE IS SO DIFFERENT FROM TEXAS TO NEW YORK.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IT'S HARDER TO CHANGE AN ENTIRE COUNTRY OVERNIGHT.

AND YOU'VE GOT NASTY HABITS LIKE FOXHUNTING THAT GO ON b ÃÃ DID GO ON WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, NOW BANNED.

IN HERE YOU HAVE RODEO OR YOU HAVE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE DONE.

I WAS JUST READING ABOUT A CHICKEN DROP WHERE AN WHEN PART OF THE COUNTRY, THEY ARE REPORTING LIVE CHICKENS OFF OF A ROOF EVERY YEAR AS A FUNDRAISER FOR THE TOWN.

THE SHERIFF SAID ANYONE WHO IS TRYING TO STOP US IS A TERRORIST.

YOU THINK, YOU KNOW, HOW IGNORANT CAN YOU BE ABOUT THE FEELINGS OF CHICKENS AND THE FACT WE ARE IN 2020?

THEY ARE SO MANY WAYS TO RAISE MONEY OR AMUSE YOURSELF.OU DON'T HAVE TO TORTURE SMALL ANIMALS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

>> Bonnie: BUT WHERE WOULD YOU PLACE THE U.S.

IN TERMS OF b ÃÃ IN TERMS OF RECOGNIZING THAT ANIMALS ARE INDIVIDUALS AND MAY HAVE SOME RIGHTS UNDER LAW?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: IT'S SORT OF A BIT UP AND A BIT DOWN.

THE WORLD IS SO DIVERSE.

IT'S JUST THE SAME EVERYWHERE.

YOU HAVE POSITIVE POINTS AND NEGATIVE POINTS, AND CERTAINLY ALL OVER THE WORLD THINGS NEED TO CHANGE.

PEOPLE THINK OF INDIA IS A VERY ANIMAL RESPECTFUL COUNTRY.

YOU HAVE BEEN THERE AND YOU KNOW THEY ARE ELEPHANTS CHAINED FOR LIFE IN TEMPLES.

THEY ARE GOING OUT OF THEIR MINDS.

THE ELEPHANTS WHO ARE USED IN PARADES ARE OFTEN BLIND IN ONE OR BOTH EYES.

THERE WAS NO VETERINARY CARE FOR THEM.

COWS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE RESPECTED, YET WE HAVE FIVE VETERINARIANS WORKING IN MAHARASHTRA ALONE, ONE STATE, TRYING TO PROVIDE VETERINARY CARE FOR ANIMALS WHO ARE JUST DUMPED BY THE SIDE OF THE ROAD IF THEY BREAK A LEG PULLING HUGE CARDS OF SUGARCANE THAT THEY CAN BARELY MANAGE.

SO EVERY COUNTRY, EVERY STATE HAS ITS CHALLENGES.

>> Bonnie: YOU KNOW, PETA, YOU DID COME TO BECOME SORT OF A HOUSEHOLD NAME IN THE BEGINNING BY DOING THINGS LIKE USING NUDE MODELS ON BILLBOARDS.

I WOULD RATHER GO NAKED THAN WEAR FUR.

SO HOW DO YOU b ÃÃHOW DO YOU KEEP IT MOVING FORWARD?

WHAT IS THE NEXT OUTRAGEOUS ACT?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: WE DID PROVOCATIVE THINGS IN ORDER TO GET THE MESSAGE DISCUSSED BECAUSE THERE WAS A TIME WHEN NOBODY REALLY THOUGHT IT WAS WORTH DISCUSSING, THAT ANIMALS NEEDED TO BE TREATED KINDLY.

TODAY, WE HAVE MORE PEOPLE WORKING ON THE NEGOTIATIONS WITH CORPORATIONS, ON LITIGATION, LEGISLATION, YOU NAME IT.

BUT WE STILL DO DEMONSTRATIONS, WE STILL DO THOSE PHOTOS THAT YOU WILL SEE EVERYWHERE.

RECENTLY, WE HAD PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE FOR FASHION WEEK.

WE DON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT FUR ANYMORE.

WE TALK ABOUT LEATHER.

AND THEY WERE POURING SOMETHING ON THEIR HEADS WHICH WAS I THINK A MIXTURE OF CARBON AND TRUECORE.

TO SAY LEATHER IS AN ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER AND CRUELTY TO ANIMALS, STAY AWAY FROM IT.

SO WE STILL DO PHOTO SHOOTS AND WE STILL ARE PROVOCATIVE.

WE HAVE OTHER WAYS NOW, BECAUSE PEOPLE DO UNDERSTAND IT'S AN ISSUE, BY AND LARGE.

>> Bonnie: I THINK TO MYSELF THAT ANIMALS BITE BACK.

YOU EAT THEM AND THEY KILL YOU.

THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF DEATH IN AMERICA WAY OUTNUMBERING ALL FORMS OF CANCER COMBINED HIS HEART DISEASE.

HEART DISEASE COMES FROM EATING ANIMAL FACT.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: YEAH.

DIABETES AND HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE, CANCER OF THE COLON, ALL THESE THINGS YOU CAN GET AWAY FROM WITH THE VEGAN DIET.

>> Bonnie: DO YOU b ÃÃBUT I DON'T SEE ENOUGH EMPHASIS ON THAT SIDE OF IT.

IF YOU CANNOT APPEAL b ÃÃIF PEOPLE DON'T HAVE MUCH HUMANITY IN THEM OR IF THEY DON'T b ÃÃIF THEY WERE JUST RAISED, YOU KNOW, NOT THINKING ABOUT THESE THINGS, NOT THINKING ABOUT ANIMALS AS INDIVIDUALS AND CANNOT SEE IT THAT WAY, CAN'T YOU GET TO THEM BY SAYING, YOU ARE GOING TO DIE USING THESE PRODUCTS AND EATING THESE ANIMALS?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: WE ARE SELFISH SPECIES, NO QUESTION.

SELF-INTEREST IS WHAT PROPELS MOST PEOPLE TO MAKE CHANGES IN THEIR LIVES.

MOST PEOPLE WANT.

WE'VE BEEN SAYING THESE THINGS FOR YEARS.

BEFORE THERE WAS AN ENVIRONMENTAL MOVEMENT ALMOST.

WE WERE SAYING YOU CANNOT BE A MEAT AND DAIRY EATING ENVIRONMENTALISTS.

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

NOW THE UNITED NATIONS SAYS THAT, THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION SAYS THAT.

PEOPLE USUALLY DON'T LISTEN TO US WHEN WE TALK ABOUT HEALTH OR THE ENVIRONMENT, EVEN THOUGH WE TRY, BECAUSE WE KNOW OUR PRIMARY INTEREST IS IN STOPPING CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.

BUT THIS IS THE PHYSICIANS COMMITTEE FOR RESPONSIBLE MEDICINE, PUTTING THAT MESSAGE OUT, THE ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS ARE PUTTING THAT MESSAGE OUT NOW.

I JUST PUT OUT SOMETHING FROM PETA THAT SAID, YOU CAN FLY FROM LOS ANGELES TO LONDON AND BACK, AND IF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE CARBON FOOTPRINT OF FLYING, THAT IS GOING TO BE LESS THAN TWO CHEESEBURGERS.

IF YOU WANT TO HELP, YES, PLASTIC STRAWS, DON'T USE THEM.

BUT IT'S ALL THE ANIMALS, THE TURTLES, THE SEALS, THE PORPOISES WHO ARE DYING IN THE OCEANS, EVEN WHALES, FROM DISCARDED FISHING GEAR.

SO DON'T EAT FISH, DON'T SUPPORT THAT INDUSTRY.

SO WE SAY THOSE THINGS, BUT REALLY EVERYBODY KNOWS IN THEIR HEART THAT THOSE ARE COMPLEMENTARY ARGUMENTS TO WE WANT TO AND SUFFERING OF ANIMALS.

THAT IS OUR PRIMARY GOAL.

>> Bonnie: I WANTED TO b ÃÃI WILL PUT THIS IN FRONT OF MY FACE SO THE AUDIENCE CAN SEE.

BUT IT'S JOAQUIN PHOENIX WHO SPOKE ABOUT AND GOT THE ORGANIZATIONS AND ACADEMIES TO SERVE VEGAN MEALS .

I KNOW IT WAS AT THE GOLDEN GLOBES AND ACADEMY AWARDS WHERE HE WON BEST ACTOR FOR HIS ROLE IN "JOKER".

HE SPOKE ABOUT ANIMAL CRUELTY.

DO YOU HAVE SUCH A FOLLOWING AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE BECAUSE OF ALL OF THE STARS WHO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED?

TELL ME WHAT HE HAS DONE FOR ANIMAL-RIGHTS.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: JOAQUIN IS PHENOMENAL.

HE FEELS THAT FROM HIS HEART, HIS ENTIRE FAMILY DOES.

AND, YOU KNOW, HE DID GET THE MALL TO GO VEGAN AT THE OSCARS AND GOLDEN GLOBES.

HE SAID, WE CAN'T REALLY GO VEGAN.

WE CAN GO ALMOST WE CAN, BUT WE HAVE TO SERVE FISH.

HIS STORY IS INTERESTING BECAUSE HE BECAME VEGAN, AS DID HIS FAMILY WHEN THEY WERE b ÃÃ HIS BROTHERS AND SISTERS WERE CHILDREN.

THEY WERE ON A BOAT COMING FROM SOUTH AMERICA TO THE U.S. AND HE SAW A FISH BEING GOADED ON THE BOARD THE SHIP.

IT UPSET HIM SO MUCH THAT HE SAID I WOULD NEVER EAT ANOTHER ANIMAL AGAIN.

HE SAID TO THE WORDS, NO, NO, NO, YOU CANNOT SERVE FISH.

THEY SAID, ALL RIGHT, WE WILL GO VEGANE IS WONDERFUL.

WE HAVE THE LARGEST FOLLOWING OF ANY SOCIAL GROUP ON SOCIAL MEDIA FOR ANIMAL-RIGHTS BECAUSE b ¦¦ >> Bonnie: HOW BIG?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: ENORMOUS.

DON'T ASK ME.

>> Bonnie: HOW MANY MILLIONS?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: MILLIONS!

WE HAVE A THING CALLED PETA FUTURE, A THING CALLED PETA SAVE OUR SPECIES, SOS, PETA KIDS .

I THINK, YES, IN PART IT IS STARS AND CHILD STARS.

MORE THAN THAT, IT'S THAT KIDS HONESTLY DON'T KNOW WHY WE ARE HURTING THEIR FRIENDS.

YOU KNOW WHEN YOU'RE A CHILD YOU THINK OF THE DOG, THE CAT, THE HORSE, YOU THINK OF THEM AS YOUR FRIENDS, THEY ARE LIKE YOU.

THEN YOU GROW UP AND SOMEHOW YOU BECOME HARD AND EVERYONE ELSE IS EATING THEM.

THE KIDS TODAY ARE NOT TAKING THAT STEP AS MUCH AS ANY OTHER GENERATION DID.

>> Bonnie: I HAVE TO TELL YOU, ON FACEBOOK A GUY bÃÃDOES SHE USED TO BE A BROADCAST EXEC AND I DID WORK FOR HIM.

HE IS NOW RETIRED.AFTER JOAQUIN PHOENIX'S SPEECH, HE WAS COMPLAINING ON SOCIAL MEDIA ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHY DID THEY ALLOW HIM TO GO ON AND ON LIKE THAT?

AND I POSTED BACK TO HIM, JIM, YOU ARE SHOWING YOUR AGE.

YOUR GRANDKIDS WILL THINK YOU ARE NOT JUST OLD BUT FROM THE STONE AGE.

[LAUGHTER] >> Bonnie: YOU BETTER GET WITH IT!

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T WATCH IT BUT DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: IT'S FABULOUS.

I AM ANIMAL-RIGHTS, BUT THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS TO ME.

YOU SEE NOW INSTEAD OF JUST GETTING UP AND THANKING THEIR FAMILY AND SAYING HOW WONDERFUL IT IS TO WORK IN THIS INDUSTRY, EVERYONE IS SAYING BLACK LIVES MATTER, YOU KNOW, #METOO MOVEMENT, ANIMAL-RIGHTS.

YES!

FINALLY, OUR LIVES HAVE MEANING !

LET'S DO SOMETHING!

>> Bonnie: WELL, YOU HAVE DONE JUST AMAZINGLY FOR ANIMAL-RIGHTS.

I MUST SAY, YOU TALK ABOUT MAKING A CHANGE.

TELL ME, WHAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT YOU THINK YOU HAVE DONE?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: I THINK CHANGING HEARTS AND MINDS.

IT'S NOT A SEXY THING TO SAY, NOT VERY CONCRETE.

BUT REALLY GETTING PEOPLE TO THINK ABOUT HUMAN SUPREMACISM, ABOUT SUPPRESSES SUPREMACISM GENERALLY AND ABOUT KINDNESSES.

HARRY BASTEN SAID IT BEST: THERE ARE THREE THINGS IN LIFE THAT ARE MOST IMPORTANT.

FIRST IS TO BE KIND, THE SECOND IS TO BE KIND, AND THE THIRD IS TO BE KIND.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT HENRY BASTEN'S WORDS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO BE ON YOUR DEATHBED LOOKING BACK AND THINKING, I WAS IN A FREE COUNTRY.

I HAD A VOICE.

I COULD HAVE DONE THINGS.

HERE I AM AT THE END OF MY LIFE AND I COULD HAVE SPOKEN UP THEN.

I COULD'VE DONE SOMETHING.

SO THERE ARE TANGIBLE VICTORIES LIKE GETTING RID OF CAR CRASH TESTS ON ANIMALS, WHICH IS WHY YOU SEE THOSE COMPUTERIZED MANNEQUINS ON TELEVISION NOW.

THERE ARE WONDERFUL THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT TO ME IT'S GETTING PEOPLE TO THINK AND BE DECENT.

>> Bonnie: AND PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHY TRUMP?

WHY DID HE b ÃÃYOU KNOW, YOU GENERALLY ASSOCIATE CONSERVATIVES, PARTICULARLY HARD-LINE CONSERVATIVES, NOT WITH ANIMAL-RIGHTS, AND YET HE SIGNED THIS BILL BANNING CRUELTY ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL?

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: HE'S DONE SOME VERY BAD THINGS FOR ANIMALS, THAT'S FOR SURE.

>> Bonnie: A WEEK OR TWO LATER HE SAID b ÃÃSIGNED A BILL ALLOWING THE IMPORT OF b ÃÃYEAH, WHICH DID NOT DRIVE AT ALL.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: BOTH OF HIS SONS ARE TROPHY HUNTERS, WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY INEXCUSABLE AND INDEFENSIBLE AND NOTHING YOU CAN SAY.

TO SEE AN INNOCENT ANIMAL, AND WILL MAKE THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND THINK I WANT TO KILL THAT.

>> Bonnie: WITH A HIGH-POWERED RIFLE, SCOPED HIGH-POWERED RIFLE.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: WITH A GUIDE, A JEEP, ALL THESE THINGS.

IT'S DIFFICULT.

THE BACK IN THE DAY, IT WAS VERY PECULIAR.

THERE WAS THE DIVING MILL IN ATLANTIC CITY.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU REMEMBER THAT.

>> Bonnie: DIVING HORSE, WASN'T IT?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: DIVING HORSE OR DIVING MILL.

>> Bonnie: BACK IN THE '40s OR '50S?

>> Ingrid Newkirk: NO.

IT USED TO BE A HORSE BUT BECAME A MEAL.

ANYWAY, BACK IN THE 1980s, TRUMP HAD HIS CASINOS THERE.

WE WENT TO HIM AND SAID, CAN YOU STOP THIS?

AND HE DID.

I THINK EVERYBODY IS SUCH A MIXED BAG IN SO MANY WAYS.

>> Bonnie: VERY EMBLEMATIC OF THAT FACT, I WOULD SAY.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: BUT HERE'S THE THING.

HE WANTS TO CUT MONEY b ÃÃHE WANTS MONEY TO GET OUT OF THE FEDERAL BUDGET.

THERE ARE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF DOLLARS GOING NOW INTO TESTS ON ANIMALS THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR DECADES THAT ARE SO OBSERVED AND SO CRUEL THAT ANYONE CAN SEE THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HUMAN HEALTH.

AND I WISH THAT HE WOULD LOOK AT OUR POSTERS, OUR BILLBOARDS ON HIS WAY FROM MAR-A-LAGO TO THE AIRPORT AND THINK, WHETHER OR NOT I CARE ABOUT ANIMALS, WHO KNOWS, I COULD CUT THE BUDGET BY PUTTING THAT MONEY INTO b ÃÃTHINGS TO HELP SOMEWHERE.

NOT INTO THOSE COCKAMAMIE THINGS.

>> Bonnie: GOOD LUCK IN EVERYTHING YOU DO.

THANK YOU FOR THE BOOK AND THANK YOU FOR SPENDING TIME WITH US.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> Ingrid Newkirk: THANK YOU, BONNIE, VERY MUCH.

>> Bonnie: THAT'S IT FOR THIS ADDITION OF "TO THE CONTRARY".

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.org/TOTHECONTRARY.

WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.