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>>>TENSIONS REMAIN HIGH AS RUSSIAN TROOPS ARE ALONG THE UKRAINE BORDER.

HOW ARE THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER POWERS RESPONDING?

WE'LL GET A UNIQUE INSIGHT INTO HOW A FOREIGN CRISIS SUCH AS THIS IS HANDLED INSIDE THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE AS WE SPEAK WITH FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE CHUCK HAGEL OF NEBRASKA.

THAT'S TONIGHT ON A SPECIAL EDITION OF "“SPEAKING OF NEBRASKA."”.

MUSIC.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US ON SPEAKING OF NEBRASKA.

I'M NEBRASKA PUBLIC MEDIA NEWS DIRECTOR DENNIS KELLOGG.

WE'RE GOING TO BE SPEAKING SHORTLY WITH FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE CHUCK HAGEL ABOUT UKRAINE AND RUSSIA, BUT WE'RE ALSO GOING TO TALK WITH HIM ABOUT HOW NEBRASKA PLAYS A ROLE IN THE DEFENSE OF OUR COUNTRY.

ONE WAY IS THROUGH A UNIQUE PROGRAM CALLED "“NCITE."”.

PRODUCER WILL BAUER OF NEBRASKA PUBLIC MEDIA NEWS SHOWS US HOW IN THE LAST TWO YEARS OMAHA HAS BECOME A LEADER IN THE EFFORT TO STOP TERRORISM BOTH ABROAD AND DOMESTICALLY.

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>> I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL WHEN THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING HAPPENED, WHICH IS THE PICTURE HERE.

I WAS A SOPHOMORE AND I REMEMBER IT LIKE IT WAS YESTERDAY.

SO OURS HERE --.

>> GINA LIGON LEADS NCITE OR THE NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM INVASION TECHNOLOGY AND EDUCATION CENTER.

TUCKED AWAY IN THE UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA AT OMAHA'S BUSINESS SCHOOL, THE FEDERALLY FUNDED RESEARCH CENTER IS ONE OF TEN SIMILAR PROGRAMS ACROSS THE U.S..

ACCORDING TO LIGON, IT'S THE LARGEST NUMBER OF PHD'S STUDYING COUNTERTERRORISM IN THE COUNTRY.

>> WHAT WE DO, WHAT OUR JOB IS, IS THEN TO CONNECT RESEARCH TO WHAT THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO KNOW AND SO AS A CONSEQUENCE, I THINK IT MAKES MY RESEARCH BETTER BECAUSE IT HELPS ME TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE CHALLENGES ARE OF THE COUNTERTERRORISM WORKFORCE IN A WAY THAT PROBABLY OTHER ACADEMICS DON'T GET TO.

>> BY TRADE, LIGON IS AN ORGANIZATIONAL PSYCHOLOGIST.

FOR EXAMPLE, SHE STUDIES WHAT MAKES BUSINESSES FUNCTION WELL OR MAYBE NOT SO WELL.

WHAT SHE'S ASSEMBLED AT UNO IS A GROUP OF STUDENT AND RESEARCHERS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY IN A WIDE VARIETY OF DISCIPLINES: CRIMINOLOGY, TECHNOLOGY, POLITICAL SCIENCE, AND, YES, BUSINESS.

>> THAT'S REALLY THE BEAUTY OF IT IS WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE EXPERTS IN ALL THESE DIFFERENT AREAS AND THEN THEY BRING THAT TO THE TERRORISM RESEARCH SO THAT REALLY SHOWS IT'S NOT JUST A POLITICAL SCIENCE PROBLEM, IT'S NOT A TECHNOLOGY PROBLEM.

IT'S EVERYTHING.

>> LAUREN O'MALLEY IS A SECOND-YEAR MBA STUDENT.

SHE NEVER THOUGHT WITH HER FINANCE BACKGROUND THAT SHE WOULD END UP STUDYING HOW TERRORISTS DIVERSIFY THEIR PORTFOLIOS JUST LIKE A FORTUNE 500 COMPANY WOULD.

>> WHAT I FOUND IN MY RESEARCH HERE IS NOT THINKING OF IT IN THE SAME WAY WE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF IT 10 OR 20 YEARS AGO BECAUSE AS TECHNOLOGY CHANGES, THE METHODS THEY'RE USING ARE CHANGING, TOO AND THAT'S WHY NCITE IS SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE AS THESE METHODS ARE CHANGING THE WAY WE LOOK AT THEM AND FIND THEM AND EVEN JUST TRACKING AND DETECTING HOW THEY'RE FINANCING, THAT HAS TO CHANGE, TOO.

>> O'MALLEY IS JUST ONE OF MANY STUDENTS WHO'S BEEN RECRUITED TO USE THEIR SKILLS IN NEW WAYS TO STUDY TERRORISM.

UNO SENIOR BYRON MOORE USES TECHNOLOGY TO HELP OTHERS COMMUNICATE WHAT NCITE IS RESEARCHING.

DOCTORAL STUDENT LAUREN ZIMMERMANN HAS A BACKGROUND IN INTERNATIONAL STUDIES AND POLITICAL SCIENCE.

>> I'VE ALWAYS FOUND TECHNOLOGY REALLY INTERESTING AND HOW WE INTERACT WITH IT AND DOING THIS PROJECT, BEING ABLE TO BRING THAT SOCIAL SCIENCE SIDE OF HOW AN ORGANIZATION IS RUN, KIND OF BRINGING IN THAT BUSINESS INFLUENCE FROM GINA AS WELL AS THE TECHNOLOGY SIDE AND KIND OF MESHING THEM TOGETHER, VERY INTERDISCIPLINARY, WAS THE FIRST TIME I GOT TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND I WAS LIKE THIS IS SUPER COOL.

I WANT TO KEEP DOING IT.

>> THE PROJECT THAT I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HERE IS A COLLABORATION THAT I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON ACTUALLY WITH ONE OF THE I.T.

PROFESSORS.

>> THESE NCITE PROJECTS CAN BE WIDE-RANGING AND NOT JUST FOCUS ON TERRORISTS ABROAD.

ERIN KEARNS IS A PROFESSOR OF CRIMINOLOGY.

>> AND IS WORKING WITH THE SARPY COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT HERE.

>> HOW DO YOU CONVINCE COMMUNITY MEMBERS TO REPORT SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY?

THAT WAS THE PROBLEM THE COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE RAN INTO.

KEARNS AND HER COLLEAGUES ARE BUILDING AN ONLINE CHAT BOTTOM PANEL TO HELP LAW ENFORCEMENT COMMUNICATE WITH THE COMMUNITY.

>> THE GOAL IS TO IMPROVE SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY REPORTING, IMPROVE PEOPLE'S WILLINGNESS TO REPORT HERE IN SARPY COUNTY, HERE IN OMAHA, HERE IN NEBRASKA, AND THEN OF COURSE ACROSS THE COUNTRY AS WELL.

>> WITH ALL THESE NEW PROJECTS, NCITE IS GROWING AND FASTER THAN EXPECTED.

DIRECTOR LIGON SAYS THEY ANTICIPATED THESE CONVERSATIONS TO TAKE PLACE IN MAYBE YEAR SEVEN, NOT YEAR TWO.

AND THAT'S WHY SHE'LL BE ASKING THE STATE LEGISLATURE FOR FUNDS TO HELP MAKE THAT EXPANSION POSSIBLE.

>> I THINK IT'S EARLIER THAN WE EXPECTED BUT IT'S GOOD.

IT'S A GOOD PROBLEM TO HAVE.

WHENEVER YOU'RE TALKING TO THE ACTUAL END USERS, IT'S BETTER BECAUSE THEN YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE RESEARCHING IS IMPORTANT.

IT'S NOT JUST LIKE US IN AN IVORY TOWER STUDYING TERRORIST GROUPS.

WE'RE ACTUALLY TALKING TO BUSINESSES AND TO GOVERNMENTS AND FIGURING OUT WHAT ARE THE PROBLEMS THEY'RE TRYING TO SOLVE.

>> FOR "“SPEAKING OF NEBRASKA,"” I'M WILL BAUER.

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MUSIC.

>> AND JOINING US NOW IS CHUCK HAGEL.

HE'S A NORTH PLATTE NATIVE, A FORMER U.S.

SENATOR FROM NEBRASKA, AND THE 24TH U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

SECRETARY HAGEL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY ON "“SPEAKING OF NEBRASKA."”.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WELL, LET'S GET RIGHT TO THE SUBJECT EVERYONE IN THE WORLD IS WATCHING CLOSELY.

AS WE TALK ON WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON, RUSSIA HAS ITS TROOPS POSITIONED ON THE BORDER OF UKRAINE ABOUT 148,000 OF THEM.

NEGOTIATIONS AND DIPLOMACY ARE CONTINUING.

NOW, YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS KIND OF DIFFICULT SITUATION BEFORE AS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FROM 2013-2015 IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS SITUATION AS IT STANDS NOW, SECRETARY HAGEL?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY IS EXAGGERATING THE DANGER TO THIS.

IT'S DANGEROUS NOT JUST BECAUSE OF ONE COUNTRY INVADING ANOTHER, WHICH IS BAD ENOUGH AND WE'VE NOT SEEN THIS SINCE WORLD WAR II AND THIS WOULD BE A BREAK IN THE LAST 75 YEARS.

BUT WHAT'S ALSO DANGEROUS IS IT BRINGS IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

ALL OF NATO, THE 30 NATO COUNTRIES WOULD BE INVOLVED.

THE NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES WOULD BE INVOLVED.

OUR ECONOMY, WORLD ECONOMY TODAY IS INTERCONNECTED.

IT ISN'T JUST ENERGY, IT'S EVERYTHING.

FOR EXAMPLE, UKRAINE IS ON THE SAME POWER GRID THAT POLAND IS.

POLAND IS ON THE BORDER OF RUSSIA JUST LIKE UKRAINE, BUT POLAND IS A MEMBER OF NATO.

POLAND COULD EXERCISE ARTICLE 5 OF NATO AND ARTICLE 5 SAYS THAT IF ONE COUNTRY IS ATTACKED, A NATO COUNTRY, ALL OTHER NATO COUNTRIES WOULD COME TO THEIR DEFENSE.

THAT HAPPENED BY THE WAY IN THE WORLD TRADE CENTER BOMBING, THE TERRORIST ATTACK THAT HIT THE UNITED STATES IN 2001.

SO, YOU'VE GOT ALL KINDS OF VOLATILITY HERE.

EVERYTHING IS HAIR-TRIGGERED.

IT'S LIKE HANDLING NITROGLYCERIN SO THIS THING COULD GO A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

ONE OTHER EXAMPLE IS WHAT IF MISTAKENLY A U.S. NAVY SHIP OR PLANE OR SOLDIERS ALONG THOSE BOARDERS, NOT IN UKRAINE, BUT IN POLAND OR ROMANIA, BUCHAREST, WHAT IF SOME WERE KILLED?

WHAT IF WE WOULD TO ACCIDENTLY OR A NATO COUNTRY ACCIDENTLY KILL RUSSIANS OR SINK A RUSSIAN SHIP?

THESE ARE THINGS YOU'VE GOT TO THINK THROUGH AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT SO DANGEROUS ASIDE FROM THE FACT IT WOULD BE ONE COUNTRY INVADING ANOTHER.

I THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS HANDLED THIS JUST RIGHT.

THIS IS A DIFFICULT, DIFFICULT PROBLEM.

DO YOU PUSH TOO HARD?

DO YOU CONFRONT TOO MUCH?

DO YOU BACK OFF A LITTLE?

WHAT DO YOU DO?

IT'S UNCERTAIN.

NOBODY KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT IS IN PUTIN'S MIND.

I KNOW PUTIN, I'VE DEALT WITH PUTIN.

PUTIN'S A RUTHLESS GUY.

HE'S A VERY CLEVER GUY.

HE'S A KGB, THE OLD KGB DAYS GRADUATE.

THAT'S HOW HE THINKS AND HE WANTS TO RESURRECT THE SPHERE OF INFLUENCE OF RUSSIA MUCH LIKE IT WAS DURING THE SOVIET UNION.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE CAN'T LET THAT HAPPEN.

IT WON'T HAPPEN BECAUSE YOU WOULD BE GOING BACK TO THE DIFFERENT TIMES AND DIFFERENT SITUATION GOING BACK TO MUNICH OF 1938.

YOU CAN'T PLACATE DICTATORS SO THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS TIME IN THE WORLD BECAUSE IT ALSO AFFECTS CHINA, IT AFFECTS NORTH KOREA AND IRAN.

IF THEY SEE THE UNITED STATES OR THE NATO COUNTRIES, EUROPE, AS TOO WEAK, IT WOULD PRECIPITATE MOST LIKELY SOME ACTION FROM THE CHINESE ON TAIWAN, NORTH KOREA MAYBE ON SOUTH KOREA, AND IRAN IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

SO, IT'S ABOUT AS DIFFICULT A TIME AS I THINK WE'VE SEEN IN A LONG TIME.

>> SECRETARY HAGEL, I WANT TO PULL ON A FEW OF THOSE THREADS THAT YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT AND LET'S START WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN.

YOU HAVE DEALT WITH HIM IN A VERY SIMILAR SITUATION.

GET INTO HIS PSYCHOLOGY A LITTLE BIT.

IS HE A GUY WHO LIKES TO BLUFF AND PULL BACK OR HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH PUTIN?

>> WELL, YOU DON'T KNOW.

HE'S VERY CLEVER, VERY WILY.

HE FINDS WEAKNESSES, HE PROBES, HE GOES AFTER THINGS IN THOSE PROBES.

HE LOVES TO KEEP EVERYBODY OFF BALANCE WITH UNCERTAINTY AS WE'RE SEEING THAT GAME THEY'RE PLAYING NOW.

I MEAN, THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF RUSSIA SAT AT ONE END OF THE TABLE ON MONDAY AND PUTIN ON THE OTHER END, JUST THE TWO OF THEM, AND FOREIGN MINISTER LAVROV SAYS, "“WELL, I THINK WE'VE GOT MORE THINGS TO TALK ABOUT.

I THINK DIPLOMACY STILL SHOULD BE LOOKED AT AND NOT RULED OUT."”.

THEN HE BRINGS IN HIS DEFENSE MINISTER, SHOYGU, AND I'VE DEALT WITH ALL OF THESE GUYS, AND SHOYGU IS TOUGHER AND SAYS, "“NO, I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO GO ANYWHERE DIPLOMATICALLY."”.

IT'S THAT KIND OF DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE THAT HE LIKES TO SHOW OFF TO THE WORLD AND IT KEEPS EVERYBODY GUESSING.

BUT I'VE GOT TO SAY, I REALLY FIND IT DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE THAT HE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO HIS COUNTRY -- YES, IT'D BE EVERYBODY, BUT HIS ECONOMY IS IN TERRIBLE SHAPE.

HE'S GOT GAS AND OIL AND THAT'S IT.

IT WOULD BE FURTHER OBLITERATED IF HE CUTS OFF NATURAL GAS TO EUROPE FOR EXAMPLE AND RUSSIA IS THE LARGEST PRODUCER, SUPPLIER OF NATURAL GAS TO EUROPE.

THAT WOULD HURT HIS ECONOMY TERRIBLY.

THERE'D BE NO REVENUE COMING IN.

THAT'S NOT A WIN/WIN FOR HIM.

HE'S VERY SMART, BUT I JUST FIND IT DIFFICULT FOR HIM NOT TO UNDERSTAND THE KIND OF CONSEQUENCES THAT WOULD OCCUR AND THEN THE UNCERTAINTIES THAT I JUST TALKED ABOUT IN THE LAST FEW MINUTES THAT WOULD OCCUR.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE WON'T DO IT BUT THAT'S WHY IT'S SO HARD TO GAUGE THIS BECAUSE HE IS THE KIND OF PERSON THAT HE IS.

AND HE'S NOT STUPID.

>> NOW, BACK WHEN YOU WERE DEFENSE SECRETARY, RUSSIA INVADED AND LATER ANNEXED CRIMEA SO YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH AS I MENTIONED THIS KIND OF DIFFICULTY AND STRESS.

TAKE US INSIDE THAT -- THE SITUATION ROOM, THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, AND JUST GIVE US A QUICK OVERVIEW OF WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE?

>> WELL, WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS DEALING WITH AND NOW IS COMPARABLE TO WHAT PRESIDENT OBAMA DEALT WITH AND WHAT WE DEALT WITH IN 2014, BUT I THINK THIS SITUATION IS MUCH MORE DANGEROUS THAN WHAT WE DEALT WITH IN 2014.

THIS -- IN 2014, IT WAS A COMPLETE SURPRISE.

I MEAN, IT WAS A TOTAL SURPRISE.

NOW, CRIMEA, THE RUSSIANS WERE ALREADY IN CRIMEA.

THEY HAD A LONG-TERM CONTRACT WITH THE UKRAINE GOVERNMENT TO STATION TROOPS IN CRIMEA.

THAT WASN'T UNUSUAL BECAUSE 98% OF CRIMEANS ARE RUSSIAN NATIONALS.

CRIMEA HAS ALWAYS BEEN TREATED AS THE STEPCHILD TO THE GOVERNMENT IN KYIV.

THE GOVERNMENT IN KYIV SINCE THEY'VE BECOME A FREE NATION IN 1991 HAS NOT HAD GOOD GOVERNANCE.

IT'S BEEN CORRUPT NO MATTER IF IT'S PRO-WEST OR IF IT'S PRO-RUSSIAN.

AND SO THEIR ELECTRICITY WAS CUT OFF ALL THE TIME.

THEY GOT VERY LITTLE FROM KYIV AND SO THE PEOPLE OF CRIMEA WELCOMED THE RUSSIANS.

THE RUSSIANS HAVE HELPED THEM, QUITE FRANKLY.

ON THE EASTERN BORDER OF UKRAINE IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT STORY.

YES, THEY'RE RUSSIAN NATIONALISTS, THEIR SYMPATHETIC TO RUSSIA, BUT THAT WAS A LITTLE DIFFERENT SITUATION.

RUSSIA LIED ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON.

YOU MIGHT RECALL THE "“LITTLE GREEN MEN"” THAT WERE REFERENCED, THAT WERE REALLY RUSSIANS AND PRO-RUSSIAN MILITARY THAT DIDN'T HAVE ANY INSIGNIA ON THEIR UNIFORMS SO YOU COULDN'T TELL WHO THEY WERE.

WELL, WE KNEW THEY WERE RUSSIANS, AND WE WOULD MEET AT THE WHITE HOUSE WITH THE PRESIDENT, SECRETARY OF STATE, ME, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, THE FBI DIRECTOR, CIA DIRECTOR, SECRETARY OF TREASURY, HIS NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL CABINET, THE PRESIDENT'S, AND IT WAS LIKE FOR A WHILE THERE WAS IT WAS EVERY DAY OR EVERY OTHER DAY.

WE HAD TO MAKE SOME DECISIONS AS TO HOW WE WERE GOING TO HANDLE THIS.

WE WERE NOT GOING TO GO TO WAR WITH RUSSIA.

UKRAINE WAS NOT PROTECTED AS A MEMBER OF NATO OR A MEMBER OF THE E.U.. WHAT WE DID WAS WE SENT DEFENSIVE WEAPONS, I THINK THAT WE COULD HAVE DONE MORE, AND WE SHOULD HAVE DONE MORE.

THERE WAS A DEBATE ABOUT THAT, BUT I THINK WHERE THE PRESIDENT CAME DOWN AND IT WAS A REALISTIC APPROACH IS THAT WE MADE IT VERY CLEAR TO PUTIN THAT IF YOU GO ANY FURTHER ANYWHERE, THEN WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO ENGAGE IN A DIFFERENT WAY AND IT'LL BE A MORE COSTLY WAY TO YOU.

LET'S TRY AND FIGURE THIS OUT.

IF YOU RECALL, THEN THAT'S WHAT PRECIPITATED THE FIRST DIPLOMATIC EFFORT IN MINSK-1 IN LATE 2014 AND THEN A MINSK II IN 2015 TO TRY TO FIND A DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION TO THIS SO THAT WE WOULD NOT GET INTO A WAR.

IT WAS DIFFERENT, A DIFFERENT SITUATION, IN 2014 THAN TODAY AND THAT'S WHY I SAY I THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN IS 2222DEALING WITH A MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT AND SEVERE CHALLENGE THAN WHAT PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD.

>> WE'RE TALKING WITH FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE CHUCK HAGEL ON "“SPEAKING OF NEBRASKA."”.

SECRETARY HAGEL, I WANT TO SWITCH GEARS A LITTLE BIT.

YOU ARE A VETERAN.

YOU'RE HONORED FOR YOUR SERVICE IN THE VIETNAM WAR, ALONG WITH YOUR BROTHER TOM.

WE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO FOLLOW YOU BACK THERE TO VIETNAM WITH YOUR BROTHER FOR A DOCUMENTARY WE PRODUCED A COUPLE OF DECADES AGO.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, HOW DID YOUR EXPERIENCE FIGHTING IN VIETNAM INFLUENCE YOU AS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE?

DID IT MAKE YOU A BETTER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE THAN SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T KNOW FIRSTHAND THE EXPERIENCE OF WAR?

>> OH, IT DID HELP ME.

ABSOLUTELY.

I DON'T MAINTAIN THAT TO BE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE YOU HAVE TO HAVE GONE TO WAR OR BE A WAR VETERAN OR EVEN A VETERAN, BUT THERE'S NO QUESTION, THAT EXPERIENCE THAT TOM AND I HAD IN VIETNAM IN 1968, WHICH WAS THE WORST YEAR OF THE VIETNAM CONFLICT, I MEAN, IT'S AMAZING TO THINK BACK BUT WE SENT 16,000 DEAD AMERICANS HOME IN ONE YEAR, 16,000.

AMERICA WOULD NEVER PUT UP WITH THAT NOR SHOULD THEY TODAY.

BUT THE EXPERIENCES I HAD FROM AN ENLISTED COMBAT SOLDIER ON THE GROUND IN COMBAT MUCH OF THE TIME, WHAT I SAW IN WAR.

I MEAN, THERE'S NO GLORY IN WAR.

THERE'S ONLY SUFFERING.

THE HEROISM I SAW AND LACK OF REALLY SOLID PLANNING I SAW, IT WAS REALLY A CATASTROPHIC WAR.

AND THERE'S NOT, I DON'T THINK A BIG DECISION OR ANY DECISION I MADE AS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE THAT I DIDN'T THINK OF SOME ASPECT OF MY EXPERIENCE IN VIETNAM.

I WOULD SAY THE SAME AS A SENATOR.

ANY TIME - AND I WAS ON THE SENIOR MEMBER OF THE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE AND ON THE SENIOR MEMBER OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE, EVERY DECISION I MADE REGARDING WAR AND PEACE OR CONFLICT, I THOUGHT ABOUT VIETNAM.

AND IT DIDN'T MEAN I WAS ANY SMARTER OR ANY BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE, BUT IT HELPED ME.

IT HELPED NAVIGATE THROUGH THOSE TOUGH CHOICES, AND IT HELPED ME COME TO A REASON THAT I MADE SOME OF THE DECISIONS THE WAY I DID.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT, NO QUESTION, LED ME TO OPPOSE THE IRAQ WAR, AND I WENT AGAINST MY OWN PRESIDENT.

I WENT AGAINST MY OWN PARTY ON IT.

I SAID THIS IS A MISTAKE.

EASY TO GET INTO WAR, HARD TO GET OUT OF WAR AND I THINK I'VE -- I THINK I WAS RIGHT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MIDDLE EAST TODAY BECAUSE WHEN WE INVADED IRAQ, WHICH WE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO, DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT AT ALL, WE STARTED THE UNRAVELING OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

THE MIDDLE EAST IS IN AS BAD A SHAPE AS IT'S EVER BEEN IN.

THAT ALL STARTED WITH OUR INVASION AND OCCUPATION OF IRAQ, BUT THE EXPERIENCE IN VIETNAM HELPED GUIDE ME THROUGH THAT AS TO WHAT I SAW AND WHAT HAPPENS IN WAR.

YOU LOSE CONTROL OF WAR AND THAT'S ALWAYS WHAT HAPPENS, AND THAT'S WHY THIS CURRENT SITUATION'S SO DANGEROUS.

YOU LOSE CONTROL.

ONCE YOU START SOMETHING, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO TURN OUT AND USUALLY DOES NOT TURN OUT GOOD.

IT DOESN'T TURN OUT VERY WELL AT ALL.

SO, YES, THOSE EXPERIENCES HELPED ME, AND I HOPE MADE ME A BETTER SENATOR AND A BETTER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

>> SECRETARY, I WANT TO ASK YOU A COUPLE QUICK QUESTIONS ABOUT NEBRASKA IN PARTICULAR AND THE NCITE FACILITY AT YOUR ALMA MATER, THE UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA AT OMAHA.

WE TALKED ABOUT IT AT THE BEGINNING OF OUR PROGRAM TODAY, BUT YOU'VE TOURED THAT PROGRAM.

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT PLAYING INTO THE COUNTRY'S COUNTERTERRORISM EFFORTS?

>> WELL, NCITE IS VERY IMPORTANT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY IN SO MANY WAYS.

AS YOU KNOW, UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA AT OMAHA AS YOU MENTIONED BOTH TOM AND MY ALMA MATERS.

WHEN WE CAME BACK FROM VIETNAM, WE BOTH WENT TO UNO AND GRADUATED THERE AND MY BROTHER TOM WENT ONTO BIGGER AND BETTER THINGS THAN ME, BUT HE'S NOW A JUDGE OUT IN OHIO BUT THAT CENTER RECEIVED A $40 MILLION GRANT RECENTLY OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

IT PLAYS A MAJOR ROLE IN HELPING THE UNITED STATES WITH INTELLIGENCE, ARMED CYBER SECURITY, WORKS WITH THE PENTAGON TOP SECRET PROJECTS.

OMAHA NEBRASKA SHOULD BE VERY PROUD, VERY PROUD THAT WE HAVE BEEN SELECTED ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS WITH A NUMBER OF PROGRAMS AND THE N-C-I-T-E IS JUST THE MOST RECENT.

IT CAN HELP IN MANY WAYS BECAUSE IT BUILDS FRAMEWORKS, IT BUILDS SCENARIOS, IT BRINGS IN SMART PEOPLE, IT HAS ACCESS TO TOP SECRET INTELLIGENCE OUTSIDE THE CONFINES OF GOVERNMENT.

THAT'S IMPORTANT IN GOVERNMENT.

I WAS A GREAT CHAMPION OF THAT WHEN I WAS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

YOU HAVE TO USE YOUR PRIVATE SOURCES, YOUR PRIVATE EDUCATION SOURCES -- CALIFORNIA, MASSACHUSETTS, THOSE ARE AS YOU KNOW BIG SITES FOR TECHNOLOGY, AND THE MORE WE CAN LEARN FROM THEM, PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS LIKE UNO AND THE KIEWIT CENTER AS A GOVERNMENT, AS A DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, THE STRONGER WE WILL BE BECAUSE WE'RE THEN UTILIZING AND CALLING UPON ALL THE ASSETS OF AMERICA.

NOT JUST THE ASSETS AT D.O.D.

OR HOMELAND SECURITY, AND THERE ARE MANY AND THERE ARE GREAT PEOPLE AT BOTH OF THOSE INSTITUTIONS THAT AMERICA SHOULD BE VERY PROUD OF AND VERY THANKFUL THAT THOSE PEOPLE ARE THERE BUT IT ADDS TO OUR CAPABILITIES.

>> JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT, SECRETARY HAGEL, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH TO JUST TO COMMENT ON THE IMPORTANT ROLE STRATCOM PLAYS IN OUR DEFENSE AND ALSO IN PARTICULAR IN 2020, THE AIR FORCE ANNOUNCED PLANS TO REPLACE THE NUCLEAR MISSILES OUT IN WESTERN NEBRASKA MAINLY AROUND KIMBALL AND THERE'S ALSO SOME OF THOSE IN WYOMING AND COLORADO AND OTHER GREAT PLAINS STATES, HOW IMPORTANT ARE THOSE MISSILES IN PARTICULAR TO OUR OVERALL DEFENSE AND SHOULD WE BE CONCERNED THAT THAT SYSTEM IS STARTING TO SHOW ITS AGE?

>> WELL, I'VE BEEN OUT AT ALL OF THOSE SITES AND I'VE GONE DOWN UNDERGROUND IN ALL OF THOSE SITES.

THEY HAVE BEEN VERY IMPORTANT OVER THE YEARS FOR OUR NATIONAL SECURITY BECAUSE IT WORKS OFF THE NUCLEAR TRIAD PROGRAM.

I THINK ALL OF NEBRASKANS ARE GENERALLY FAMILIAR WITH THE NUCLEAR TRIAD SYSTEM MEANS THERE'S THREE PHASES OF OUR NUCLEAR CAPABILITY.

ONE IS THE LAND-BASED MISSILES, WHICH YOU ARE REFERRING TO THAT WE SEE SOME IN WESTERN NEBRASKA, WYOMING, NORTH DAKOTA.

SECOND IS DELIVERING NUCLEAR WEAPONS VIA AIRPLANES AND THE THIRD IS DELIVERING NUCLEAR WEAPONS UNDER THE SEA, FIRED BY SUBMARINES.

SO, IT GAVE US GREAT FLEXIBILITY SO ANYBODY WANTING TO DECLARE NUCLEAR WAR ON THE UNITED STATES WOULD HAVE TO DEAL WITH YES, KNOWN POSITIONS BUT UNKNOWN POSITIONS UNDER THE WATER AND UNKNOWN POSITIONS IN THE AIR.

OF THE THREE, THE MOST VULNERABLE ARE THE MISSILE SILOS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE ALL NUCLEAR POWERS KNOW WHERE THEY ARE, AND WE KNOW WHERE RUSSIA'S ARE BY THE WAY.

NOT SO MUCH CHINA BUT YOU'VE GOT OTHER NUCLEAR POWERS: ISRAEL AND THEN OUR ALLIES FRANCE AND GREAT BRITAIN AND IRAN IS GETTING CLOSE TO IT.

NORTH KOREA, WE DON'T KNOW WHERE THEIRS ARE BUT THE MOST VULNERABLE ARE THESE MISSILE SILOS THAT WE HAVE.

NOW, WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE REMOVED OR NOT IS A DEBATE.

I KNOW THAT DEBATE WAS GOING ON WHEN I WAS AT DEFENSE, AND I KNOW ABOUT THE DECISION IN 2020 TO START DISMANTLING THOSE.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S A FINAL DECISION YET.

I JUST TALKED FOR EXAMPLE TODAY TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE ABOUT THE MISSILES AND WE TALKED ABOUT RUSSIA AND UKRAINE BUT ABOUT OTHER THINGS, AS WELL.

SO, THEY HAVE BEEN TREMENDOUSLY IMPORTANT TO OUR COUNTRY AND OUR SECURITY, AND IT MAY WELL BE THAT IT'S TIME TO GET RID OF THEM.

I DIDN'T HAVE TO ENTER INTO THAT DISCUSSION BECAUSE IT WAS NOT REALLY A DISCUSSION THAT WAS ON THE TABLE AT THE TIME I WAS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, BUT I THINK YOU WANT TO LEARN FROM EVERYBODY ON THIS AND LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY AS TO THE BEST REASONS THEY CAN GIVE AS TO WHY YOU WOULD PULL THOSE MISSILES OUT OF THOSE SILOS.

I'M NOT OPPOSED TO IT, BUT I JUST WANT TO KNOW IN DETAIL WHY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WELL, SOME FASCINATING INSIGHTS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AND U.S.

SENATOR CHUCK HAGEL.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOU APPEARING ON "“SPEAKING OF NEBRASKA"” TONIGHT.

>> AND THANK YOU ALL FOR WHAT YOU DO, PBS IN NEBRASKA.

IT'S TREMENDOUS WORK AND WE'RE ALL BETTER FOR IT AND GRATEFUL, THANK YOU.

>> WE APPRECIATE IT, SECRETARY.

THANKS SO MUCH.

AND THIS INTERVIEW AND TONIGHT'S PROGRAM HAVE AVAILABLE ON OUR WEBSITE.

JUST GO TO NEBRASKAPUBLICMEDIA.ORG/ SPEAKINGOFNEBRASKA AND JOIN THE CONVERSATION ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

FIND US ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER AT NEBRASKAPUBLICMEDIANEWS.

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>> THAT'S ALL FOR THIS WEEK ON "“SPEAKING OF NEBRASKA."”.

A SPECIAL THANK YOU TO CHUCK HAGEL FOR HIS INSIGHTS ON OUR NATION'S DEFENSE AND TO UNO'S NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM INNOVATION, TECHNOLOGY, AND EDUCATION CENTER FOR SHOWING US THE WORK THEY'RE DOING.

NEXT WEEK, JOIN US FOR A DISCUSSION ABOUT DIVERSITY IN EDUCATION.

UNTIL THEN, I'M DENNIS KELLOGG.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

MUSIC.

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